As an aside, are you aware that there is some evidence that there is an industry of abducting female infants in China to feed the adoption industry there? Adoption is not necessarily a panacea to the world's troubles- it may, in some instances, spread misery and sorrow in its own right.

should have been selfless, kind of wacked out a bit and apparently can no longer write correctly.

You appear to subscribe to the egotist view, so how about you name oine thing that you can call truly unselfish, just one.

And the hysteria begins. Axordil, it was just a *question.* I wasn't talking about anything except having kids. I'm not going to enter into this type of "one step further" argument you're trying to bait. Sorry.

You said "love." Agagin, you can do that with adoption and still get the same effect.

Thanks.

...how many truly unselfish reasons do most of us have for doing anything? Scratch the surface of most "altruistic" behavior and you find out that most people do good things because--get this--it makes them feel good.

If you do have children, please raise them to be capable of critical thinking. That's all we can ask. I know it's not easy, from my own current experience, but the alternative is unspeakably bad.

The love that one has as a parent is selfless- as someone else said, it is a case of putting your child's interest before your own each and every time without a moment's thought. This was not an experience that I had on a regular basis before having children, although I would never suggest that it is impossible to have this without being a parent. A level of selflessness has pervaded other aspects of my life since I have become a parent and it has stemmed from experiencing this love- in a word, I feel less entitled. This has even spilt over into behaving in a more ecologically-sensitive fashion! As for adopted versus biological children, I don't think there is a difference at all. You are certainly right, however, if you think that the root of having biological children is a hard-wired and selfish desire to propogate one's genes- I just don't happen to think there is anything wrong with this.

I also suppose that you can argue that my desire to be a source of selfless love is selfish in itself, but then so is your desire to not leave a large footprint on this earth. I think that both desires are commendable.

Explain how so? Because if what you're saying is that YOU WANT to love a child, that's still YOU WANTING something. It's about YOUR wants then? Again, selfish.

Besides, if that's *truly* the case, if love is the *only* reason, then you can adopt.

Love.

...if anybody here can think of one unselfish reason for having children. If you know one please tell me. That's all I'm asking. Thanks.

I had children at a relatively late age because I realized that I wanted to "belong" or get to know first hand the entire world of young and growing kids. And that is one of the highs of having children, that you get to know so many others and babysit your neighbors' kids and love them maybe in a different way than your own, NATCH, but love many children. I was totally fascinated by my own kids and yes, as they grew, there was the nightmare school decisions and unbeknownst to me at the outset, I was a single mom and did it all alone.

I don't know about the list against having kids. Look, I almost waited too late and so I guess I lived those fears of time and money going going gone. But here's the deal, once you have yr child or children, odd as this will sound, there is simply no going back not even in imagination. This is one postion, maybe the only, where once you do it and have a baby, you can never ever think about not doing it. I can't say why, but this is true even for us many single moms who joke that even though our children our adults, we have never completely overcome the postpartum depression, the worries, the constant thoughts of these being we surely love more than ourselves.

Sometimes, at the worst times, when I meet someone who is child-free or child-less, I mumble, "stroke of genius" meaning that day is just overwhelming. But on the other hand, you join a tribe. An ancient tribe of mothers and fathers, most esp mothers, and you are bonded with those kids that you children befriend, and with their parents too. I'd say the USA is a hard place to raise kids, far harder than in small countries where I spent a good deal of time while my children were growing up. In tiny villages or small cities around the world, you do get more support and in some places kids are included in everything. Whereas had I raised my children mostly in USof A, I think I would have felt far more isolated, as the world of adults vs. world of kids are split more often than not.

In any event, it seems both a cliche and a true thought to say that the imagination cannot go back to the place where you were without kids and make any sane judgement re: was it worth it? As a much older mom said to me a few weeks after my first was born, "kids take a bite of your heart like no man or no one else can." I thought, Not me. I found Yes me.

Just want tomake that comment, and I wasnt implying biological kids have anything over adopted kids. I was just making the point its ridiculous to say middle class people shouldnt have kids, apparently with the view that everyone else can. Nobel Przes are unlikely, highly so, I was just sayying that not every person born, whether middle class, rich, poor, American, or otherwise, is going to be evil. That maybe some people outway there good. And no the suicide comment has nothing to do with your right to live. The idea wqas that simply if you believe that every person is a drain on the world and thus Earth should be rid of humans than why not kill yourself. It has nothing to do with your right to live, a right to live argument comes dangerously close to sounding 'pro-life'.

Narcissism, is that your favorite word? Seriously,your entire belief in having kids and adopting is that it is narcissistic, that in andof itself is a holier than thou, smug argument. You pretend to know everyone oppiniofor having kids,it might not to serve a higher purpose (I doubt all parents are religous, or even spiritual). Ifyou say Americans should adopt and not have biological children, thats fine people may disagree but I understand where you are coming from. But haf the time you sound liek itd be a drain on the world to merely parent children if you live in America, and that is just unkind and truly selfish; selfish because it might benefit you more to have children living in cramped conditions (orphanages), so that they dont drain resources. And as for overconsumpion, wehy do you have a computer, why not live somewhere else, perhaps volu\nteer and donate all money to those who cannot even afford sustenance. By using more electricty you are voluntarily being overconsumptive.