Letters to the Editor
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Tom Payne
"Nice straw person. Hillary is the one saying that she's all action and Obama is all talk"
except of course you accused me of claiming that, which makes it not a straw person at all, but a baseless attack on your part, one that is completely inaccurate. Nice job of copping to that. More of the insufferable Obama-supporter can-do-no-wrong superiority I suppose
"her ample ass"
yes, more of that high-toned unifying rhetoric. Oh, Obama would be proud. From scatological insult to weight insult--and you accuse Hillary of stooping?
"She began this campaign with a huge lead in money, name recognition, and double digit leads everywhere. Gone. All gone"
Gee, really? You mean people didn't just vote on name recognition? And somehow that's an indictment of HIllary's abilities? Please. Yes, she's only getting half the votes, let me repeat that, half the votes, because she's terrible at all those things. Give me a break.
"kicked her ample ass from coast to coast. I doesn't take a keen eye to discern a pattern, but it apparently escapes you"
Yes, it somehow does escape me how winning a bare 50 plus percentage of the actual votes is "kicking someone's ass". Especially as some of that "ass-kicking" comes not from ability but pure demographics. Apparently that escapes you. As does the fact that 51 percent victory is far from an "ass-kicking". One hopes the people counting the actual votes do math better than you do. I sure am glad my favorite basketball team kicked their opponent's ass last night--winning 68-67. Whew, they sure cruised! And boy, I left a kick ass tip the other night at dinner. Twenty cents on a 20 dollar meal--bet that waiter loved that!
"I don't pretend to take all this chat room banter seriously"
Your adolescent language, silly hyperbole, and complete fabrications/inaccuracies certainly make that apparent. I suppose it's something that you at least admit to being the local clown and that nobody should take you seriously
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damn that anon!
"or the person who keeps posting as Anonymous"
Seriously--that person is on every forum I go to. It's incredible. Where does he or she get the time? (not to mention writing all that old poetry and stuff) :)
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@ xrandadu hutman: Reciprocity?
First: I don't respond to Anonymous posters because they DO NOT speak for me or HRC supporters. They can't put their names/identifiers to their comments and I don't see that as reflective of the majority of HRC's supporters.
Second: Yes, I'm aware of cythera. She and one or two of the anonymous posters are offensive, I agree, but I don't think they are widely representative of HRC's supporters. Not so with Obama's followers.
Third: No, I can't agree that the vitriol is worse from HRC's supporters -- and by supporters I mean those who post with an actual name/identifier. I DO see and read remarks by Obama's followers with name/identifier that are beyond the pale in terms of the anger and hatred directed particularly at Hillary Clinton. And it is incredibly irrational. I've gone back through commentary on Salon and elsewhere and roughly 7/10 of the negative commentary -- name-calling, sexist remarks, slurs, outrageous distortions, lies, innuendo comes from Obama's followers.
Finally: I'm not going to argue with you, which is apparently what you want, given you last comments. I asked for reciprocity; that doesn't appear forthcoming.
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@ljwalker
ljwalker: Sorry for the lack of reciprocity. But when your entire post is based on the premise that the Obama folks are doing all this bad stuff, and then you willfully ignore and avoid acknowledging the massive loads of crap raining down from Clinton supporters, it's easy to doubt your fair-mindedness.
Ljwalker: "I've gone back through commentary on Salon and elsewhere and roughly 7/10 of the negative commentary -- name-calling, sexist remarks, slurs, outrageous distortions, lies, innuendo comes from Obama's followers."
You must be using a different type of vision than the rest of us:
-- name-calling: I can think of few names being leveled at Clinton. Maybe "Billary." What else? People have been calling Obama "Obami," calling supporters "Obamabots" (also "Hillbots" on the other side), repeatedly using the name "Barack Hussein Obama" with the obvious intent of highlighting his middle name, etc.
-- sexist remarks: I've seen very little of this, frankly. Can you cite an example? The majority on here don't even discuss Hillary in terms of her being a woman, or in terms that are double-standards for men. Few of the arguments used have baited her or refered to her gender. Maybe I missed the comments you saw.
-- outrageous distortions: Again, what are you referring to? What was distorted about Hillary and her record?
I think you see what you want to see.
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@ xrandadu hutman: Loads Of Crap By Clinton Supporters?
First: Go back and read comments just on this article!
Second: If you need proof from posts on Salon and elsewhere:
Clintonistas, Hillbots, Ample Ass, War Monger, Republican-lite, Deceiptful Tricks, Billary, Hillsters, Feministas, Old Politics, Politics-As-Usual, Georgie's Mouthpiece, Republicans' Mouthpiece, Goldwater Girl, The Clintons (implying that HRC is just an extension of Bill), Tired, Worn-out Tricks, Dirty Politics, Triangulation, Triangulated, Ms PAC Man, Dirty Money, Her Husband's Coattails, B****, Stupid, Conniving, Greedy, Cold B*****, Shrill, Strident, Amoral, Immoral, Hit Woman, Controlling, Lesbian, Tight-Assed, C***, Wh***, Repug Wh***, Bill II, Arrogant, Shrew, NAFTA Wh*** (whatever that means), Welfare Reform Queen, 7 Sisters Hag, Hilary, Man Suit, Valueless, Claws Out, PWB (Priveleged White B****), Anal B****.
These aren't disagreements over policy or legislation or voting record. These are words and names used over and over and over again as insults. How often do HRC's supporters use this kind of language about Barack Obama?
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@ljwalker53
ljwalker53: "Loads Of Crap By Clinton Supporters? First: Go back and read comments just on this article!
Okay, so I did. I went meticulously through the first 4 pages of this article's comments. (I figure the first 4 pages are representative enough.) Here is what I found:
Page 1:
-- KcM: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- gezelligtexas: Neutral or pro-Clinton. Non-offensive.
-- KcM: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- SocsandTwigs: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- Wearedoomed: Pro-Obama. "How much of an egomaniac is she [for not conceding]?" Otherwise non-offensive.
-- AncientAssyrian: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- Busy Body: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- heyjude: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- Slackie Onassis: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- BryanS: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- SocsandTwigs: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- KcM: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- slcgrad: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- SocsandTwigs: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- heyjude: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive and in fact complimentary toward Clinton.
-- tom payne: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- heyjude: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- Anonymous: Pro-Clinton. Offensive: "Hillary needs to continue to rough him up, set him up for McCain. She has to...make it as dirty as possible. ... She will soften him up for McCain's kill."
-- peeps: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
Page 2:
-- melthough: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- SocsandTwigs: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- billcap: Pro-Clinton. Offensive: "...Saint Obama. Obama supporters: Always gracious in victory. One hopes the man is better than his supporters."
-- SocsandTwigs: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- KcM: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- Anonymous: Pro-Obama. Offensive: "Maybe you should not have voted to give chimpy carte blanche. I'll bet you never thought that it would come back to bite you in the ass. ... In the words of Nelson Muntz, Ha Ha!"
-- jpetty: Pro-Clinton. Non-offensive but argumentative: "Obama people, your dancing on Hillary's supposed grave is unseemly. I know a lot of you are young, but that's no excuse for bad manners."
-- Slackie Onassis: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- SocsandTwigs: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive but argumentative: "keep foaming at the mouth bud."
-- heyjude: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- Anonymous: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
Page 3:
-- Cecile: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- peeps: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- Villemar: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- tom payne: Pro-Obama. Offensive in calling a Clinton supporter "billcrap" instead of "billcap." Also argumentative: "In 1776, she would have been a British sympathizer. A wonk is one thing, a weenie another."
-- peeps: Pro-Obama, but defends Clinton for not congratulating Obama.
-- SocsandTwigs: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- firefly82: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- FilthyHarry: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- Peter Maranci: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- Anonymous: Non-determinable. Non-offensive.
-- Anonymous: Pro-Obama. Semi-offensive: "[The Clintons'] negative chickensh**t attacks", but mostly just listing arguments.
Page 4:
-- Dmagnificent: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- The Maple Menace: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- manos99: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- SocsandTwigs: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- Anonymous: Pro-Clinton. Non-offensive.
-- FilthyHarry: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- Anonymous: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive, but for: "Clinton simply couldn't square her feminism with her stupid cocky war-mongering."
-- Anonymous: Pro-Clinton. Offensive: "But, it just shows you're sheep. Follow the lead of the media echo chamber."
-- Peter Maranci: Pro-Obama. Non-offensive.
-- billcap: Pro-Clinton. Non-offensive but argumentative.
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So there you have it, I responded to your charge. Percentage-wise, the Obama supporters are about 95% non-offenisve toward Hillary Clinton and her supporters.
Granted, the majority of posters are Obama supporters. Most of the Hillary Clinton supporters are laying low. But of the few Clinton supoporters who did post, about half were of an offensive nature.
I rest my case. Or, at the very least, I think I've demonstrated that your perception that it's all about Obama supporters' behavior is partially blind to the offenses coming from your own side.
ljwalker53: "Second: If you need proof from posts on Salon and elsewhere: Clintonistas, Hillbots, Ample Ass, War Monger, Republican-lite, Deceiptful Tricks, Billary, Hillsters, Feministas, Old Politics, Politics-As-Usual, Georgie's Mouthpiece, Republicans' Mouthpiece, Goldwater Girl, The Clintons (implying that HRC is just an extension of Bill), Tired, Worn-out Tricks, Dirty Politics, Triangulation, Triangulated, Ms PAC Man, Dirty Money, Her Husband's Coattails, B****, Stupid, Conniving, Greedy, Cold B*****, Shrill, Strident, Amoral, Immoral, Hit Woman, Controlling, Lesbian, Tight-Assed, C***, Wh***, Repug Wh***, Bill II, Arrogant, Shrew, NAFTA Wh*** (whatever that means), Welfare Reform Queen, 7 Sisters Hag, Hilary, Man Suit, Valueless, Claws Out, PWB (Priveleged White B****), Anal B****."
Where are you getting this? Are you keeping a log of negative Hillary Clinton names? I know you didn't just type that in from memory. Where did it come from?
For the record, I have seen almost none of those names used in Salon. Maybe I haven't read through as many message threads as you have, but lord knows I've read through a lot of Clinton/Obama message threads, and I haven't seen even a fraction of the names you listed above.
I'd say MAYBE I've seen people use the term "Clintonistas" once or twice. I've seen "Hillbots" a few times (along with "Obamabots"). I've never, ever, seen any of the gender-tinged names out mentioned (bitch, c***, lesbian, whore, etc.) Are you sure you didn't make some of these up, or pull them from some other web site?
Seriously -- I have been in scores of these message threads. And EVERYBODY knows I have, because I type WAY too much -- and I haven't seen 90% of the name-calling you just listed. (Care to provide a link to some of those? Again....where did you get that list?)
ljwalker53: "These aren't disagreements over policy or legislation or voting record. These are words and names used over and over and over again as insults. How often do HRC's supporters use this kind of language about Barack Obama?"
Actually, I've seen quite a bit, and very often. It might be just 3 or 4 people, for all I know. But those 3 or 4 people post what seems like 300 or 400 offensive messages a day.