If they are considering "amnesty" for the telecoms then perhaps Gravel could make "Amnesty for Debtors" his campaign slogan, hell I would be indebted to him.

It's my understanding after watching an interview with Gravel after a debate a month or so ago (there are so many they run together for me) that his bankruptcy occurred because he couldn't afford to pay his medical bills.

I, for one, think it's commendable that Gravel was able to serve in Congress, end the Vietnam draft with a daily 5-month long filibuster, read the Pentagon Papers into the public record to circumvent a judges orders that the WaPo and NY Times couldn't publish any more, and go back to Alaska without a large chunk of corporate change in his pocket.

Say what you will about Gravel, but unlike all the front runners, he does not have his mouth firmly around the, ahem, members of the corporate elite viciously sucking for some of that campaign cash.

And how, exactly, is it any different for Bush & the Congress to fail to balance the budget NOW, allowing Bush's "temporary" tax cuts to continue, while we blow money we don't have NOW on a war of choice in Iraq, etc. -- leaving the bill to our children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren?

Talk about declaring bankruptcy! I guess our descendants DESERVE to be stuck with OUR BILLS too, huh?

Yeah, he "stuck the credit card companies" with his $85,000 debt, and the credit card companies then redistributed that debt across its customer base and each one of us with a credit card eventually, indirectly, wound up getting stuck with Gravel's debt. Yeah, he really stuck it to the man!

Well, his fifteen minutes of shame are just about up.

Bankruptcy has historically been a right of the wealthy individuals and industries. It's only recently that this right was extended to (gasp!) everyone, which is why in true hegemonic form, the practice was promptly demonized (even among those who would benefit from it most) and now legally minimized.

Garry Owen, I defy you to explain to me how I have paid one dime of Mike Gravel's debt. I have always paid the balance on my credit cards each month. So please, do tell.

If you're concerned about socialized costs, then let's talk about incorporated companies and limited-liability corporations, both of which are effective subsidies for the wealthy. It shields wealthy CEO's from the full consequences of their mistakes, forcing society at large to pick up the tab.

How even you have paid is simple. One way credit card companies make money to cover bankruptcies (and other expenses and profits) is by charging merchants a 2-2.5% fee for handling the transaction. The merchant, of course, passes that on to everyone in the form of higher prices. Just because you and I never pay finance charges doesn't mean that we don't pay the costs indirectly at some level. Of course, those paying finance charges get hit a lot worse than you and I do.

...Biden (D-MBNA) didn't run across the stage and pummel Gravel for insulting his constituency.

"Garry Owen, I defy you to explain to me how I have paid one dime of Mike Gravel's debt."

Vondo beat me to it. Thanks Vondo.

Mr. Humidity, you need to dry off.

"Bankruptcy has historically been a right of the wealthy individuals and industries. It's only recently that this right was extended to (gasp!) everyone,..."

Oh-my-gawd. Does Mr. Humidity ever come up for air?

Only recently, Mr. Humidity? (Gasp!) Americans have been able to file for bankruptcy all the way back since reform legislation was enacted after the Great Depression so that good people who lost everything could fight their way back out of the poor house.

That all changed, "recently" in 2005 when Bush signed into law bankruptcy "reform" legislation from the Republican-controlled Congress which was written almost verbatum by the credit card companies, AND the Health Maintenance Organizations (HMOs, like Kaiser Permanent-ly broke) making it extremely difficult for ordinary Americans to get out from under catastrophic debt.

The CC companies, the banks and the HMOs will hound you beyond the grave, making your children, grandchildren and even THEIR grandchildren, legally responsible for paying off your debt for generations into the future.

The HMOs know that vast numbers of people are without any kind of health insurance, in some cases unable to get it due to pre-existing conditions. One bad car accident, one bout of breast cancer, and bang, everything you worked for in life is wiped out and you can never get back on your feet again because your credit is ruined, you are considered to be a deadbeat for the rest of your life. No way out. Not even suicide. Your heirs will have to pay.

Tim's slam of Sen. Biden is unfair, as most who were watching the debate might recall. Russert had asked several questions on foreign policy to several other candidates in a row, ignoring Biden who really IS a foreign policy expert. When he finally got to Biden it was on immigration and while the Senator did make an answer, he complained quite reasonably, "I wish you'd ask me about foreign policy..." Putting it so out of context as Tim does here is not fair to the Senator at all. He did in fact show clearly he is one of the very best we have in some of the areas most important to our country these days. And by the way, his response to the immigration question was sound and thoughtful.

I wrote:

Bankruptcy has historically been a right of the wealthy individuals and industries. It's only recently that this right was extended to (gasp!) everyone, which is why in true hegemonic form, the practice was promptly demonized (even among those who would benefit from it most) and now legally minimized.

So, Garry, when I said "recently," I meant in recent history, like the last century. I didn't mean last week. And I was referring to the 2005 legislation when I wrote that one's right to declare bankruptcy has been legally minimized.

Your first post seemed to criticize Gravel's bankruptcy. Your last seems to decry not having that right. Obviously, your contradictions are baffling, but frankly I don't care. All three of your posts are obnoxious in tone, replete with adolescent name calling, and that's all I need to know about you.

The other point about the merchant charges is an interesting one, but I doubt that if credit cards were outlawed merchants would drop their prices 2-2.5%. Yes, they affect prices. The price of every thing affects the price of everything else. Our economy is an interdependent web. Furthermore, the rates of those merchant fees are fixed. When Gravel declared bankruptcy, he didn't cause an uptick in rates up to 2.51%. That money came out of credit card profits, which is why they wanted the 2005 legislation.