spends their life working to deny equal rights to a group of people

those that do - well they would be bigots that would be what that word means -

so some sins - such as what your talking about here (everyone sins) dont come close to spending your LIFE WORKING TO DENY A GROUP OF PEOPLE EQUAL RIGHTS,

so i find your argument unworkable - my sins dont come close to that - so keep your hipocracy to yourself - on this i we are not!

a said:

You're assuming they both used their real names. "Art" certainly didn't.

Well, he used his middle name. And he did start out the voicemails with, "Hi, Mike." I mean, how many gay prostitutes named Mike do you think he knows that he gets them confused all the time?

Give me a break. I don't recall anyone here posting comments stating that they were holier than thou. The point of this is calling out the utter ridiculousness of Haggard claiming that he was. Understand? Disagree? Well, his vocal opposition to gays is transparently stating that he believes he is superior to those individuals. And I don't care if scripture gives him a foundation to say it. It is commonplace for Christian evangelicals to cherry-pick the verses that they like to diatribe from - forgetting other passages that shed enlightenment (and may counter) some viewpoints. Remember, the Bible is the recounting of experiences that the apostles had with Jesus, of which the gospels WERE PIECEMEALED TOGETHER BY HISTORIC KINGS AND RELIGIOUS LEADERS. You are what is wrong with this country - allowing people to act without accountability by making excuses for their behavior. He condemned an entire social group and helped contribute to this nightmare of an administration we have. Hmmmm, we can't take him to task on that because all of those sinners out there kept that nickel at the grocery store. Glad to see your priorities are in order.

that all the bible passages against gays also say that adultery is punishable by stoning and women should be submissive to their men,that divorce is wrong

and that women should be stoned women should be stoned women should be stoned,

cant state that enough - the passages they qoute (leviticus et al) as their basis for anti-gay anti humanity attacks also attack women,

of course attacking women is taboo today so they dont say it - but those passages of course in their entirity completly remove any credibility these EVANGELICALS have.

evangelicals are evil - why? because they engage in anti-humanity practises.

bigotry is evil and unfortunatly that makes those who engage in it evil also.

so sorry but it needs to be said.

lets not forget the majority of the leaders of the evangelical movement have said at one time or another that gays should be put to the sword!!

Slow Starbucks Guy and Anabella, you're missing the point. Jesus doesn't rank sins. All are equally reprehensible in his eyes, but note he had special contempt for those who tried to pooh-pooh their sins.

Remember, merely lusting is the same as the adulterous act, Jesus said. Merely hating your brother is the same as murder in his economy.

I'm guilty of both and rely on Jesus' mercy to forgive. You're guilty of many sins, too, but you seem to think they don't matter because they're not as "bad" as Haggard's.

Well, re-read the passage again. The standard you use to judge Haggard--self-righteous judgment--will be used against you for your own sins.

lets not forget the majority of the leaders of the evangelical movement have said at one time or another that gays should be put to the sword!!

What nonsense. Let's see some exact quotes and sources on this please. Remember, you said "majority," so citing one loony tune like Fred Phelps doesn't count.

I'm waiting ... [sound of foot tapping]

No, a, "we" are not all sinners. Your religious issues are your problem; not mine.

Not trying to remove the splinter in another's eye until you have removed the plank in your own, a. Haggard had 2x4 in his eye. He preached heavily against the immorality of meth and gayness. He was vicious in his condemnation of anything he saw as not righteous. He's been the very definition of meanness, and he has used our Lord's name to justify his viciousness as he violated Jesus's words about loving our naeighbors and treating others as we would be treated. Haggard has been far meaner than anything said on these forums.

He was campaigning for an initiative to outlaw gay marriage. He claimed homosexuality was a depraved choice, and if people acted like him and his followers, they wouldn't make that depraved choice. His words were inaccurate. Not to mention, he's lied and made fun of people trying to tell the truth and wrestle with these issues in an honest way. He's hurt a lot of people.

God will judge him, true. But if people want to laugh at his viciousness coming home to roost, I can not blame them.

By the way, a, you are judging the others yourself. You might want to live out what you say. It's hard for them to take you seriously when you are doing the very thing you accuse them of.

...But it is you that are missing the point. And that being that you live in a democracy, not a theocracy. I don't care how badly you want it to be (maybe America isn't the place for you if this is how you see things). In a democracy, the only way for it to preserve its integrity is for our leaders to be held accountable for their words and their actions by the people that those leaders are there to represent. #1 - Haggard (unfortunately) is a leader. He rallied his base to vote for George W. Bush (who ironically reflects none of the Christian values I learned in Church and reading the Bible). He meets with him every Monday and has been an advisor to Karl Rove in their politico-religious administration. #2 - This country is NOT our leaders and our government. It IS the people, and it is the duty of every American to go beyond flag waving and anthem-singing and ensure that our leaders act in our best interest. I doubt that his congregation feels that ordering meth and contemplating homosexual relations ws in their best interest. Luckily, I am not in his congregation. I merely want those that attempt to oppress others to be held to the same standards that they openly push. I know I am a sinner. That's why I try to accept everyone, help those in need, and display empathy for my fellow man. THAT'S what being a Christian is all about! Can we get over that point now?