Nowhere have I said that Haggard should not be held accountable for his actions and words. If he broke the law, haul him in. If he violated his marriage vows, his wife has every right to be pissed off.

I'm not defending the guy. Please re-read my first post. I'm talking about the judging of his soul that is going on here, the utter glee people are having in someone else's fall. (That's the definition of shadenfreude, by the way, the exact term I used.) You take extreme pleasure in someone else's fall? YOu think you don't fall in your own way? God thinks otherwise.

But what do I know. Maybe my gay-dar isn't that highly developed.

<<Jesus doesn't rank sins. All are equally reprehensible in his eyes, but note he had special contempt for those who tried to pooh-pooh their sins.

Remember, merely lusting is the same as the adulterous act, Jesus said. Merely hating your brother is the same as murder in his economy.>>

"a" comes the closest of anyone I've ever heard to what I take as Jesus' message, and I've been in church most of my life. I was just curious if "a" wishes to divulge what denomination teaches the approach that "a" explained, above.

I am also curious what tradition New Life Church falls into.

I think "a" sums up Jesus' message perfectly. I think so few seem to get it at least in that way.

I wonder what tradition Haggard was raised in. I was raised in a very fundamentalist church and it is CRAWLING with preachers who are in the closet. It is not politically active so you probably haven't heard of it. But the people grow up exTREMEly repressed and many of them compartmentalize and get up to all sorts of sexual things on the sly. There is a special thrill of getting "away" with something, so to speak. In my opinion they aren't well-integrated personalities...it's like that's "not really them" cruising the seedy side of town, it's "time-out." I think this is partly how the thinking goes: "I've been so good all my life, I never got to have any fun, God will understand." I think if Haggard was raised in an extremely repressive religious environment there may be something other than rank hypocrisy going on...kind of a compartmentalization thing. Not that that makes the damage he does in his condemnations any less damaging.

then they believe gays should be put to the sword -

the qoutes are out there and not just for phelps - dobson, falwell etc - just go to the anti defamation league and look it up -

but i dont have to post them because there is an inherent trigger that proves my qoute - it is that the bible says they should, the base of the evangelical movement is that the bible speaks the truth and should be followed - there-in that gays should be put to the sword - either disavow the bible or your for execution of someone because of who they love.

its not hard to figure this out!

The word of God commands, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Lev.20:13).

Have we not been taught that homosexuality is an abomination (Lev.18:22). And those who engage in homosexuality are so vile that their very presence defiles the land and its inhabitants (Lev.18:25-28).

This sodomite defilement brings eternal damnation upon all who approve of homosexuality (Rom.1:32, 13:2) and brings God's righteous judgment of punishment and death on the society as a whole (Gen.19:24-25, II Pet.2:6).

The Magistrate, in his proper role, "beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil" (Rom.13:4).

Yes, I agree. It's why the divorce rate is so high in the Bible Belt. "Well, Jesus will forgive me if I cheat on my wife. Jesus will forgive me if I slap her around a bit." (Fill in the blank for whatever sin is being rationalized.) It's based on weak (or nonexistent) theological thinking. It's based in highly selective reading of Christian teaching. The presumptuousness of so much of this thinking is breathtaking. They are lucky that Jesus is as merciful as he says he is.

I don't know Haggard's background, but New Life Church is pretty charistmatic, and charismatics and pentecostals are particularly weak on deep thinking and theological contemplation, since they are so based in the "experience." They have soft hearts, surely, but all too often they have soft heads, too.

John Calvin said the church is a whore, but it's a whore God has chosen to redeem. (cf. the Old Testament book of Hosea.) Unfortunatey, too many of us prove that true every day.

For a man that used religious motivations to hijack democracy, all who have fallen victim (i.e., every person in this country that has had to endure an inept Bush administration that has caused countless American deaths because of their arrogance and incompetence) have full right to enjoy his downfall caused by the very things that encompassed his platform of hate and dominance. We, the people, apologize if you find that to be a sin, but he entered into a secular political spectrum (yes, American politics are meant to be secular - it's the fundamental basis of our country), and he is now judged accordingly. FYI - Without judgment by people like me, noone would get convicted (i.e. a jury of citizens), people needing help wouldn't get it (e.g., alcoholics who get interventions by those that love them and see them headed down a path of destruction), and those in the public eye that spout hateful rhetoric without fear of accountability would be unstoppable. Accountability is not limited to be delved out by those in authority only - it is the public's responsibility to discuss, post blogs, whatever, to ensure that the issue is brought front and center. Relying on religion to basically say that only the police or his wife are entitled to have an opinion is just ludicrous.

It's amazing that no matter how many times you state something, someone (a) doesn't read what you've written previously or (b) misunderstands it or (c) deliberately misunderstands it.

Again, I'm not saying not to hold the guy accountable if these various things are true. That, in a way, is "judging." I'm distressed at those who take such glee in judging the sense the Jesus uses it, condemning the man for the very things that they are guilty of--namely, being a fallen sinner who doesn't practice what he preaches. We are all guilty of that--some just don't realize it, refuse to see it or rationalize it because Haggard is so much "worse" than they. That is what Jesus called hypocrisy, and all those who are so eager to judge Haggard are only heaping condemnation on themselves, too, because they acknowledge that that which they are also guilty of is worthy of being judged.