I wonder how many more Iraqi lives must be lost until we reach the notional figure for the Iragi equivalent of a single American life?

How high does the body count have to go in order to indict the criminals who foisted this on us (Cheney, Rummy, Condi, Perle, Wolfowitz, et al et seq ad nauseum). We've sown the wind. North Korea may be more dramatic, but, long term, the seething hatred for America in the middle east will last for generations.

The researchers surveyed almost nearly 1,850 families, amounting to more than 12,800 people in many of the 40-household clusters around Iraq.

They recorded 629 deaths among the families with 13% occurring 14 months before the invasion and 87% happening 40 months after.

They added that in almost 80% of the cases, family members were able to show death certificates.

So they're not double-counting people, and most of the people checked are able to show death certificates. Yeah, sounds like they just pulled numbers out of their ass all right...

Yes, all of us Americans are besmirched by this despicable war, and the Democrats in congress have been spineless in the extreme. But there were huge protests in the streets of major American cities, and in European ones as well, in the run up to the war. They were as large or larger than the Vietnam era protests. I know. I was in both of them. But we didn't persist. That's on us. It would take the reinstitution of the draft to fill the streets again, I'm afraid. then, we'd be out of Iraq in six months. Meanwhile, vote in November. It's all we've got.

We don't talk like that in New York City...

was exactly what I meant. A quick erasure of the Iraqi Army, as in Gulf War I (or II, depending how you count), CNN shows the drive through the streets with the Iraqis throwing flowers, then a whole bunch of Americans figured they could sit back and watch the smart bomb videos again. (There's quite a network involved in exchanging that stuff, y'know?)

Did every American expect and hope that it would be easy and fun? No, of course not... but enough did so that there was no serious domestic opposition to that little adventure. This invasion and occupation - and the hundreds of thousands of deaths that resulted - are a stain on _America_, the whole country... not just on the Republicans or right-wingers or conservatives adventurers who set the wheels in motion.

We invaded eye-rack because the PNAC plan called for it; it's right on their fascist infested website. The public bought it because they were, and are, distracted, stupid, and unquestioning. Of course, that's a vast oversimplification, but it was, and is, a war of election, not of necessity, and all the deaths are traceable to the republikan majority.

jeffrey, complaining about the easy and fun comment wrote:

And I don't think most Americans expected a years-long occupation - they certainly never expected to see Muslims slaughtering each other with such vehemence.

Many Americans expected this. Both the years-long occupation, and the bloody civil war. Those Americans who bothered to find out anything on their own, without trusting the evening news and lying politicians expected exactly this outcome.

I made these points many many times during the run-up to the war. And the thanks I got was to be called a traitor. Only a traitor would think this war wasn't necessary. Only a traitor would think this war would not be easy. Only a traitor would dare to imagine this war would make us less safe.

Lots of people I had the misfortune to interact with were looking forward with glee to this war.

Fun? Yes, exactly that. Fun. It would be fun to kick some brown-skinned ass on the other side of the planet. I was disgusted to hear more than one person display that exact attitude.

If you did not experience these personal attacks, and these racist attitudes, I envy you.

If you did not expect this most obvious outcome, that just means you weren't paying attention.

That's offensive and untrue. Yes, many thought taking Iraq would be "easy", and militarily it was, but I don't recall anyone joking about it - I was against it from day one. And I don't think most Americans expected a years-long occupation - they certainly never expected to see Muslims slaughtering each other with such vehemence. This was has been a nightmare for those of us who never had anything against the Iraqi people, and never approved going to war for that bastion of freedom, Kuwait - in the first place. Our president has let us down - and our congress continues to do so, and while the world seems to get some perverse pleasure at watching the Giant stumble, this has been a multinational catastrophe years in the making and with no end in sight, save for more troops and endless civilian deaths. And as much as I despise George Bush, he was handed Iraq on a platter from two previous administrations and a United Nations (and Europe, too) that cheered for Iraq I and imposed sanctions with little debate. No one's hands are clean, and instead of pointing fingers, you might cross them, because in a few weeks it could be the begining of the end of the Bush doctrine, and if we could make a capon of the Texas Chicken, maybe we could start untangling this mess...

First, we know anything Bush says is a patent, self-serving lie, so 30K is obviously low. Let's say the 655K estimate (and it claims to be nothing more than that: an estimate) is double the actual death rate. Halve that again, and you have about 160K dead innocents. Iraq has approximately ten percent of the US population (30M vs 300M). So, proportionately, it's as if Osama bin Hidin' killed 1.6 million Americans. How does that feel, fascisti? The WTC and the Pentagon, as hideous as they were, totalled less than 3,000 deaths. We do them no honor by killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in a country that had nothing, nada, zero, to do with the attacks of 9/11.