Just to flesh out my last post: Tim Grieve links to Andrew Sullivan, Andrew Sullivan links to the National Catholic Reporter, and the National Catholic Reporter links to a group of anti-torture Christians called Pax Christi. So are the Pax Christi people hypocrites for trying to end torture at the same time they confess Christ? If so, how so?

More important, I'm still seeking an answer to my previous question. I've seen so much anti-Christian vitriol spewed out at this and other Websites, so again I'm asking: is the Christian Right correct when they say that progressives hate religion in general and Christianity and Christians in particular?

While the central figure in Christianity is a torture victim, the central event, after all, is an extended torture narrative -- one dwelled-on, dramatized, reenacted endlessly for thousands of years. Surely we can't be surprised by this "development," especially from a crowd that's highly militarized, substantially pro-death-penalty, and wants "Thou Shalt Not Kill" posted on the courthouse wall.

Ladies and gentlemen, you are hereby notified that "talk2me" now represents "REAL" Christians and decrys all "CHINOS" everywhere!

Talk2me, read my previous statement. If you believe that somehow there is only one brand of this toxic religious nonsense, and you represent the "pure, real" version of it, then you need a reality check. Get over yourself. All of this stuff is toxic, religion is toxic, and personally, I love watching religious people argue about which is truer than the other as they put on their Red Queen costumes and chase each other "all to nowhere."

I would answer Mr. Sullivan by saying, "Bull." I do not support torture and I am pretty certain that the many other American Christians I know do not support it either. I include in that list the conservatives that I know. What HONEST Christian could support a system of behavior that dehumanizes others? Only "Christians" who are CHINO's.

The religious right has often said that progressives, or Democrats, are the party of godlessness. And whenever that charge is made the inevitable response from progressive quarters is: who, us, hostile to religion? Well, if religious conservatives want their views confirmed they can come right here. I've found similar vitriol on other progressive Websites. Come on, are the religious rt-wingers right, or not?

If you care to go to the original story in the National Catholic Reporter, you will find that the official Catholic teaching is that torture is never permissible. That's right. Christianity Today, the flagship magazine of moderate evangelicals, recently had an article titled, "5 Reasons Torture Is Always Wrong." I don't know if I can post a link here, but the URL is http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/002/23.32.html

Some of us really do take seriously Jesus' command to love our neighbors as ourselves.

The way I understand the Christian acceptance of torture (along with other seemingly non-Christian concepts such as wars of choice) is informed by how I understand religion. See, all the world's religions began with one or a handful of spiritually inspired people (later called "prophets") who had some kind of genuine spiritual experience. They shared this experience with others and drew followers. The focus was largely on the truth of their transcendental experience, less on a cult of personality that developed later.

This truth and the attention it drew developed worldly power, as does anything that draws lots of attention, and began to attract those who were drawn to power. Thus, a spiritual experience becomes a religion when it accepts and becomes built around a human power structure. Basically, religion is the intersection of spirituality and the politics of human power over one another, usually with the latter replacing the former.

That doesn't mean there aren't people who subscribe to a religion who have a sincere spiritual connection to that religion's truth. I even know one (only one) Catholic who is very devout and one of the wisest people I know. However, I would say she's certainly the exception to the rule.

In general, I feel that organized religions -- and particularly these Middle-East-spawned ones that turned "god" into a man with a long white beard -- are a virus that has caused insurmountable damage to humanity and is currently threatening us with annihilation. Religion itself has become the dark, destructive force that most of its books prophetize. The sooner a critical mass of people can see their way out of this trap, and shed the vestiges of obsolete 2000-year-old mindsets, the sooner we can truly progress as a species.

Ms. Schwarz,

I think that this is the first time I have ever read a point where you actually point to what is happening inside of the California prison system. You have ranted that the prison guard lobby runs Sacremento, and that all of us are a bunch of evil hypocrites for not paying attention. What you have not done to date is give us any examples (which now you have) or given any references to back up what you said (still haven't).

I will sort of echo what Lynx wrote: what is your dog in this fight? As Lynx said, this is obviously a very personal issue for you. I'm trying to figure out your motivation is, as almost every post you write talks about the California penal system.

I admit that Abu Gharib disturbs me, but then again, I knew nothing of it until I saw the infamous New Yorker article. Beyond your occasional non sequitor posts, I have no information. So, give me some references to read so that I might understand.

Well, I think religion sucks huge, organized or not, so we disagree on that and I'm not going to try to change your mind or belabor the issue.

I'm atheist. The atheists I know are mostly calm, logical, reasonable people, with morals more sound than the religious people I know. Again, this is just a fact of what is my personal experience. Perhaps there are people out there who know some atheists who really suck, who are not like the ones I know. Fine.

I don't think you can say that in the absence of religion "everyone" would be unruly idiots. We really have no way of knowing that, but at least atheists don't blather on about their "faith" as an excuse for why they believe and do completely irrational things. If anything, religion and ridiculous religious texts have given believers and people of faith an excuse for their acting like unruly idiots. The current state of the world demonstrates that even with the existence of religion, things are a complete mess, and it's pretty clear at this point that religion has played a big part in making the mess. That's why I said, IMO, that the net result has probably been negative.

For example, and this is just one example, religious fundamentalists are willing to blow themselves up, taking "innocent" people along with them, so they can be rewarded with lots (don't know the exact number) of virgins when they get to heaven, or paradise, or whatever the fuck they call their version of eternal bliss. Nice. And that's just one example of the sherr irrationality of it all. It's tiresome. Seriously, I'm weary from it.

Again, I liked what pacificwhim had to say. I hate to sound like John Lennon, but could we imagine for one minute what it would be like?