Letters to the Editor
-
Its not as cool as surfing, but the kids seem to like it
Enough already!
-
Would you use the results of torture as a source in your story....
Let's just suppose that you are offered an opportunity to interview a potential source to a story that has broad interest. You are given access to the interrogator's victim with the torturer present. The victim tells you what you think is consistent with the line of your editor's vision of the events in your reporting area. The story will give you closer access to the ruling military authority because it aligns you with their statements of the events in the area and maybe they have even provided you the lead to the story and possibly the security to prevent you from becoming a hostage yourself. You can also see that the victims were not victims of waterboarding but the common torture of blood letting. The microphine turns on; America is in October drive time; Baghdad is east of eden; the cue has been set by the soft voice of your host in Washington and the air has filled your well school'd and award winning lungs... What then do you say, Joan, what does Abrams say? As you answer that inquisitive question, you will answer the question of what waterboarding look like.
-
Cheney will still like it
as awful as this was for me to watch and knowing that my view is that it is torture, this video - as the only public video out there - worried me. I'm afraid that for most people the technique won't look "bad enough" to make them not wish it on a potential terrorist - esp. after the show "24" has convinced people torture works.
First, the guy was trained for this stuff and had had it done before so he knew what to expect. His psychological reaction certainly wasn't typical since he knew he wasn't going to be killed. Second, they didn't take vital signs to show how person reacts and for much of it he wasn't thrashing about so the response wasn't as clear. He didn't choke/vomit or hyperventilate it seemed. Finally, he was able to endure 24 minutes of it.
So if the standard Bushie line is torture must be tantamount to the pain of organ failure or death, this didn't meet that standard as it looked on screen. I fear if Cheney saw this, he'd say, "see, like I said before, it's just a little dunk in the water."
-
@Xrandadu
I have to agree with you r.e. the video. I didn't find it shocking enough, quite frankly, given that the guy is chuckling afterwards and noting blithely that "that sucked." Of course, one could certainly surmise that it is infinitely more terrifying to be waterboarded under circumstances where you truly don't know whether your interrogators are going to kill you. But still, I don't this video advances the anti-waterboarding cause to the extent Joan thinks.
You know what I think is truly outrageous about the Bush administration's approach? It's not that they torture. I believe that virtually every President has condoned "black ops," assassinations, destabilization of regimes, use of diplomatic facilities and cover for espionage, etc. I suspect every President has reached a moment in his career where he has to think, "May God forgive me for the decision I'm about to make." But you know what's different about the Bush regime? They want legal cover for it. They want immunity. They want a memo from their attorneys telling them it's okay. Everyone else who has ever made these kinds of decisions has recognized that they could be branded or tried as a war criminal, that they violated international law and possibly domestic law, and if they decided to go through with the decision, they were willing to accept that risk. Not these characters. No, they have to corrupt the office of the Attorney General, they just have to have that memo from OLC. I say, if you think you're the "decider," and history will vindicate you or whatever, then go ahead and decide, but take your lumps afterwards. You can't have it both ways.
-
Sorry - I didn't make it through the video
I lasted only about 30 seconds into the torture - when they started putting canteens and bowls of water on this kid.
How in the name of Heaven can anyone suggest this is not torture. I literally felt as if I was watching people kill someone in a slow and cruel way.
What have we become?
-
Look You Liberal Whackos
If the republican base that constitutes 20 percent thinks it's not torture, it's not torture.
In fact that goes for everything now. Whatever that 20 percent thinks or wants.
-
And These Are The Clowns
Spreading democracy. The 20 percent.
-
I Was Thinking About
Rudy's dismissive and joking references to torture. Nothing is off the cuff at that level of politics. Everything is considered and measured.
Was that his attempt at appealing to the evangelicals?
-
For the record
Torture is to be taken seriously, but Salon blatherers are not.
-
Life
Pre-emptive war. Behemoth defense budgets. Private contracting additions to the army. Fudging on torture. The death penalty.
Somebody better reign in the Culture of Life or there's gonna be nobody left.
-
Two points
1) Kudos to Bob for pointing out the obvious that I haven't seen much of: Mukasey cannot say waterboarding is torture or he will have to prosecute the people who he would work for. I don't know how any nominee will get out of that trap, but it's fun to watch them try.
2) A staged waterboarding could never demonstrate the terror that the real thing would instill in a victim, the fear that the people doing it to you are actually on their way to killing you. And when it occurs, it is also part of a package of stress-inducing tactics (sleep-deprivation, etc.), which 100% of Americans would label torture if they ever have to experience them.
-
As Forrest Gump might say: Torture is as torture does.
I think the bottom line here is that if Michael Mukasey, Bill O Reilly, Rudy Giuliani, or I were exposed to waterboarding we would ultimately sign a confession saying we masterminded 9/11 and we would give up the names of anyone we could think of as conspirators. The technique is torture and the result is useless.
-
Waterboarding
Last year an amendment was offered to a Senate Bill that declared waterboarding to be torture. It was voted down something like 53-42. The Mulkasey flap is pure Democratic, demogogic politics, assisted by the way by brain dead Arlen Specter, my (puke) senator.