Letters to the Editor
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BULLETIN:
GEORGE BUSH HAS BANNED ALL POLLS
HE SAYS, HE'S THE 'DECIDER' AND KNOWS MUCH MORE THAN THE 'GOVERNMENT OF THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE'
HE'S CONVENIENTLY DONE THIS BYPASSING AN OBSTINATE AND IGNORANT CONGRESS.
LET'S SUPPORT OUR COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF AND MAKE THIS UNIVERSALLY UNANIMOUS.
YEAH...............RIGHT!!!!!!
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Appalling
It's appalling that we are even sitting here trying to parse out where the line is drawn. That's bullshit. I say, if you have to start asking yourself the question, it's because you already know what the answer is. You just don't want to accept that answer. You want an exemption. You want absolution.
As Dershowitz said in the story. If it is a good thing, stand behind it. Let the President come before the cameras and admit the depth of his viciousness for the public record. Maybe, he should be forced to administer the treatment himself.
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Torture and the rules of war
I think the entire debate on whether waterboarding is or is not torture misses the larger point, which is the context, which is war.
If enemy combatant A is shot point blank and killed by a U.S. soldier, or if he is gut shot and left to die in the street, it's somehow OK, but if he's captured and waterboarded for information, a tactic that leaves him alive, though harmed, it is not OK.
The message seems to be, murder in the name of a mission is all right but take your time hurting someone while preserving their life, and you're immoral.
Only in wartime could anyone have this sort of conversation with a straight face.
I mean, hello! The single job of a country at war is to kill so many of the enemy that they are involuntarily overwhelmed or voluntarily surrender. This endless debate on torture seems to ignore the entire idea that war is sanctioned killing. Torture is just a variety of that.
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The Boy is the Father to the Man
We are ruled by emotional cripples and moral cowards. Why are we surprised that a little boy who thought tormenting frogs was great fun grew up into a man who feels that torturing people is OK if it gets him what he wants?
And why are we surprised that he can get toadies to serve as an amen corner?
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The problem with waterboarding
Here's Mukasey's problem:
If he says that waterboarding is torture, which we all know it is, then the people who waterboard are violating the law and any proof of anyone violating the law would require Mukasey to prosecute.
Which actually shows the problem with anyone that Bush nominates. The best that Bush can hope is that someone leans on the Dems to not ask those kinds of questions.
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How to get the answer...
If waterboarding is defined as torture by the Geneva convention and we are bound by the Geneva Convention, why is its legality even in question? I understand the President's position is that the Geneva convention doesn't apply to him under the circumstances he has fortuitously defined for himself, but that doesn't negate the fact that according to U.S. law, it is illegal.
The Democrats on the committee have missed the point. The issue isn't whether waterboarding is legal or not (it is not), the issue is whether the President is bound by the law. That should be the question the Judge is being asked: Is the President bound to follow U.S. law?
Of course if the good Judge is unwilling to answer the question, after watching this video, I think I know how the Democrats on the committee could get it out of him for 1000 dollars. 800 if they haggle.
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Monsterisation of America
Torture was not acceptable in America prior to Bush and Jack Bauer. It didn't take long or much to turn people into monsters, did it? That which we loathe and despise in our enemies our "operatives" practice with relish and delightful savagery.
Most Nazis and German citizens said they didn't know what was going on in Germany during World War II. Americans cannot say that about this. What the hell is wrong with people?
Once you cross certain lines, you cease to be human. If you can tolerate torture, you are way over that line.
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Devil's advocate here
A couple of things --
(1) First, a disclaimer: I am against waterboarding being used by the U.S. I have serious doubts it has helped extract useful information (and if it has, let's see some tangible evidence). We're not really at "war" in Iraq in any conventional sense; we're occupying a country and fighting guerillas who ambush us and use other methods. If you waterboard somebody and they want you to stop, they could just as easily make up information as give you the truth. Meanwhile, the U.S. goal of "winning the hearts and mind" of Iraq citizens is undermined every time you torture somebody who is merely a detainee and not an actual enemy. They'll end up hating us for putting them in such a humiliating and scary experience, and they'll go home and tell their friends and family, and they'll hate us too. I am convinced that this is exactly what has already happened in Iraq and is in large part the reason why the insurgencies grew and never abated.
(2) All of that said, I am not sure why people are disturbed by this particular video. Is there something in it that you didn't already know from reading descriptions of waterboarding? The man is laying down and people are making him drown/suffocate under controlled, reversible conditions. It looks like a terrible thing to be subjected to, and I would probably cry "Uncle!" within a few seconds of it. (I can't believe that man held out for 24 minutes....how did that work? If water filled his lungs did they keep removing it and starting over?) However, at the end of the video, that same man is laughing, speaking coherently and from all appearances not traumatized. It looks like he will be able to go home at night and sleep and be able to carry on his life as normal the following day. So, in that sense, I think it is intellectually dishonest for people to equate waterboarding with other forms of torture. John McCain was tortured via many methods, one of which involved tying his hands behind his back and then behing hung by his wrists, causing his arms to pull upward in a highly unnatural way. This damaged his arms for life. McCain still can not raise his arms over his head or perform simple movements like combing his hair. On a relative level, at least, waterboarding compares favorably to that. I guess I am just playing the devil's advocate here. Please see the #1 part of this message, above, before replying to me.