Schumer is an asshole.

Feinstein is, well, Feinstein.

We.Are.So.Fucked.

Killing Japanese didn't bother me very much at that time... I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.

- General Curtis Lemay

To me this illustrates an important point, war is an immoral enterprise and those that participate may well commit illegal acts. After all losing may well result in their death either on the battlefield or later as the result of a war crimes trial.

The difference with Bush and Mukasey is that they apparently don't see any problem in dragging civilians far from the war zone directly into the hell of war.

Let's all call their respective offices on Monday and express our outrage about this. Do it. Even if you feel it won't matter. Do it.

That's funny. I always figured you for a DiFi supporter. It's basically what you've done with Salon....

Joan, if you can't do this, ask one of your readers, but seriously, the guy has a great reputation, and you're letting him piss all over it. It will be a shame if he has to go on social security just because you and he couldn't move on.

When yellow people do it to white people, it's torture.

When white people do it to brown people, it's Defending Freedom.

Hope this clears things up.

I endorse John Dean's idea, posted over at TPM:

Before the Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee completely cave-in to Bush, at minimum they should demand that Judge Mukasey appoint a special prosecutor to investigate if war crimes have been committed. If Mukasey refuses he should be rejected. This, indeed, should be a pre-condition to anyone filling the post of Attorney General under Bush.

Schumer and Feinstein are safely ensconced incumbents and are not in danger of losing their seats. They can't be punished -- but other congresspeople can.

Put your representatives on notice that if any of their fellow Democratic colleagues continue to acquiesce to this criminal administration, you are quite willing to not vote for them. That doesn't mean you have to vote Republican, just not Democrat.

I myself arrived at that point when the Dems decided to continue funding Bush's illegal and immoral war.

could use Salon to discuss how we get Instant Runoff Voting, or None of the Above Voting, or other constitutional voting schemes.

Truth is....

Joan loves DiFi and all her partays!

let's just gather everyone-- mukasey, bush, etc., in a panel, sorta like when we were deciding what pornography was ("i'll know it when i see it"). subject them to water boarding one by one, then, when they are able to speak, let us know if it was torture. we'll have a little pencil and tablet to write on for those who take a while to regain their voices so as not to hold up the procedure.

The Gestapo called that particular "enhanced interrogation technique" (as they termed it, and, fittingly, as the US has), "the Bath." It involved holding someone underwater until they drown, then using CPR to revive them.

So, it's not just the WWII Japanese we're emulating with waterboarding; it's the Gestapo, too. We're in excellent moral company.

And once American prisoners at some future point are subject to "enhanced interrogation techniques," we'll have no moral credibility to oppose them or complain about them -- all the torturers will have to say is "Well, you do it."

This is why America's Clinton- and Bush-era opposition to the World Court for War Crimes was so short-sighted and paved the way for the expansion of criminality under the Bush regime; it wasn't recognized then by the majority, but this paved the way for what we're dealing with, now.

Now, why Charles Schumer and Diane Feinstein don't get that is anybody's guess. It's in our national interest to oppose torture, and not to practice or condone it -- that this even has to be explained is frightening, shows how low we've sunk.

I'm glad you're keeping it in the forefront. There's no doubt that waterboarding is torture. I don't understand how anybody believes that you'd get any useful information from somebody after doing that to them. I can't believe people keep trotting out the whole "What if a terrorist knew the location of a ticking bomb..." scenario over and over.

Regarding Schumer and Feinstein, I am as disgusted by their betrayal as you are. Isn't it obvious that a back-room deal was made somewhere? We may never know what it was, but I have to believe that they were paid off somehow -- the Bush administration promising to grease the wheels for their favorite pork projects, or something.

I have never trusted Feinstein since she strongly backed a flag-burning amendment. Feinstein is a lot like Lieberman in that she is 100% in bed with the right-wing Israel lobby, so it's not surprising that when push comes to shove she makes concessions to neocons.

Anyway, the fact that the AG nominee can't be upfront about waterboarding is pathetic. It'll be even more pathetic if Senators slowly, one-by-one, roll over and let him slide into office. Haven't we been through this process a zillion times already? It makes Congress look so pointless when they keep wimping out and letting "whoever has the strongest agenda and the most bribes" get their way.

If we let waterboarding and other torture become acceptable -- just because of a "this is a war, and stuff happens" rationalization -- then we all lose.

The very fact that conservatives have put torture and wiretaps on the table as a legitmate discussion shows they own the arguement, and sadly are winning it. I can't tell you how many people just look at me and roll their eyes when I complain about this. Its sad but I believe the majority of americans are not bothered by it.

There has never really been any doubt as to whether water boarding is torture.

In any case, the Geneva Convention pretty much lays down an approximation to the Golden Rule. If in doubt treat your prisoners the way you want your own captured soldiers to be treated. Would we want our people to be interrogated on a water board?

It is totally disgraceful that our nation uses torture when we have a President who calls himself a Christian. Why has he not been called to account by our religious leaders?