"Fenian struggle in second half of l9th century". Hey, what do l00 years or so matter. Piece-of-cake should tell his latest love, domini, what the German word "mist" means so that "Play Misty for me" will take on a whole new meaning.

Why would anyone who is planning to vote for the "presumptive" Democratic nominee bother to even attempt seriously engaging in a debate with you? You have defined what, from your POV, is a "typical Obama supporter" and what Obama "Supporters Say" and those pat characterizations are narrow at best. Sorry, but I don't fit your stereotype (neither do many people I know, who aren't here commenting on Salon.com, just making up their minds and going about their daily lives). Certainly I'm not going to try to change your mind. Last I checked, it's still a free country and all citizens registered to vote have the right to cast their votes however they choose. Your posts today have had every bit as much of a vitriolic tone as those of any poster you have criticized. I happen to like hearing various perspectives. I consider and learn from them. But once pidgeon-holing and personal attacks enter the scene, there's no learning--or sincere debate--to be had.

Joan... if you couldn't see how the Clintons were playing the race card during the primaries, why in the world should we think you can see the obvious now? Short of McCain wearing a Klan hood in one of his ads, you'll likely never see the spoken or implied messages of race in his ads... from 2 white girls in their ad to a clip of Obama shooting hoops, you know the sport dominated by African-Americans... but it's all there.

AMEN!!alleluia to all you said. Pegster

that Bill Clinton is in Ethiopia right now with the Clinton Foundation, trying to help people in need.

...especially on the internet. Using those jerks as an excuse not to vote for someone is a pretty poor reason. Hell, there were plenty of Clinton supporters acting like idiots as are there supporters of other candidates. If you're not going to vote for someone based on his or her views, fine, so be it. But to lay the blame on a candidate's supporters saying that they swayed you, not that the candidate turned you off, makes that person seem petty and seem to be allowing themselves be run strictly by emotion. The prime target of many conservative messages, in other words. To me, this line of thinking is like looking at some of the worst elements of our society and using that to judge our entire country. I could take look at New York City, see the crappiest, the most rude parts, the most crime ridden parts and come to the conclusion that the entire state of New York has no redeeming qualities, but that would be very short-sighted on my part.

Again, vote on your conviction, but blaming some nameless, faceless person on the internet for not liking a candidate is ridiculous.

Don't give up. There is a place in the world for idealists who don't want to accept lies, even if it would be easier and more pleasant to simply do so. At some point all but the most fanatic Obama fans will have to accept the reality that he is not what he says he is. At that point the truth will start to matter again and those of us who refused to give in to mass delusion will be around to say "I told you so". ;-)

Actually, I've been hanging around in the hopes that if I immerse myself in this stuff for long enough I'll find my sense of humor again, and it seems to be working. Nothing has seemed funny for a long time, since about the time the Iraq War started, but I'm beginning to see the humor in all of this. All of the (semi?)trolls, like Klytus, who simply want to bait people who don't like Obama, but don't seem to really care about the issues. All of the Obamabots who pop out of the woodwork to spread Axelrod's message when Obama is in trouble. All of the True Believer's who take every slight on Obama as proof of evil intent, even if the slight is merely a bad poll. The variety of ways people stretch things to be racist, the sexist comments about Clinton, the variety of attacks on McCain as senile/delusional/decrepit. I used to like watching free republic threads because it was a fun exercise to count the logical fallacies and watch their heads spinning as they ranted about the "threat of the day". Now I get the same amusement watching Daily Kos. It was sad, at first, because I once was a "true believer" in the power of the netroots, but now that I see the humor in the human condition it isn't so hard. Like Michael in "Stranger In A Strange Land", I am starting to get it, to understand that all of this is tragedy AND farce, and the only appropriate response is not anger, which hurts me, but laughter, which hurts nobody, except those who choose to take offense. It's a sad kind of laughter, but it's better than being angry. And every so often I get into an actual enlightening discussion with somebody who expands my view of the world. That's like gold in this era of ignorance and misinformation.

I'm sure that I'l be angry again at some point, but I'm going to keep tweaking people who take things way too seriously. It's all about perspective. Bad Presidents, even Bush, are not the end of the world, the internet is not the ultimate source for The Truth, not all people who disagree with you are trolls, and not all people who claim to be for Truth, Justice, and The American Way are Supermen. And if people call me nasty names, well... who cares? I know who I am and what I believe. I'm a liberal (not a bleeping "Progressive") to the core, and was a Democrat, and I don't respect Obama even though I prefer his politics to those of McCain, whom I, oddly, DO respect. Thus, I have no horse in this race. For the first time in years I can stand back and watch without worrying about the outcome. Neither of them will be awful or great Presidents. And the race is very interesting.

Oh... and I miss your comments. They were always interesting. Keep the faith. And keep your perspective. And, if you get a chance, read "Stranger in a Strange Land". Great Book. :-)