The whole thing is just depressing.

I really, really am just disgusted by all of them right now.

I don't want McCain in charge, but now, I have very grave concerns about Obama. It's just terrible.

Here's a clue in to all of you people out there whining about how Obama isn't joining you in your 'principled stand': any effective bipartisan politician, by their very nature, must make ugly compromises and deal with the devil, if you will. For the record I'm with the idealists here and love my country and am exasperated at the selfishness, short-sightedness, and remarkably poor decision making of our American electorate. This is why I too would make a lousy politician and would only perpetuate this polarized, us-vs-them mentality that is making a fool of our fragile democracy.

But Obama is a great politician first and he IS taking a principled stand right under your noses by quickly, thoughtfully, and openly explaining his position, just like he said he would. I encourage you to read the text of his thoughts on FISA in its entirety:

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2008/07/obama_speaks_to_fisa_reversal.html

This speech is no less than an acknowledgment of this bill as a smelly, radioactive mess that, incredibly, is far better than the existing neo-fascist 'war powers' dystopia as envisioned by George Bush Jr.

Can you imagine McCain or Bush inviting dissent on their website and then actually taking the time and at least trying to be accountable? Of course Obama did this at least in part to make sure he keeps raking in cash. But is that the only reason?

Another poster said it well: "Obama plays to win" This is a good thing, folks. Recall that we have a lot of people in this country who are still scared out of their minds and never thought of the Patriot Act as the travesty that it is. These people do not share our mindset but they too are Americans. Let's give the man a chance on stage and see if he can sing. Even if he becomes just-another-politician, there is no question whatsoever he's our best shot.

So complain here and complain on Obama's website, vehemently and unflinchingly, but for God's sake don't be a spiteful child and elect another War President.

BTW, I really think this fear of the republican using opposition to the FISA bill against Obama is ludicrous.

CONGRESS HAS A 9% APPROVAL RATING, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!

Amurikans may not understand FISA, but they do understand a principled stand and the strength that it conveys. There are very basic arguments against this bill which, if given some real medie exposure, most Americans would agree with. Poll after poll (see Greenwald archives) have shown this and Obama is the one person who could have garnered that attention.

What he did what pure chickenshit and it's going to hurt him, one way or another.

To invoke some football parlance, the Democrats, once again, are playing pass defense (i.e., PLAYING TO LOSE).

and I'm just not up for it. You started out with an incredibly snarky and divisive post daring everybody to make this about Clinton, and you picked on a mild and completely obscure reference I made to the "center" when I suggested that it seems Obama seems to be playing realpolitik now rather than principled politics, which so many of us here at salon prefer.

I actually thought I was answering your question about the "center" wording. If not, I apologize. It was well-intended. I don't play games here.

I think it's pretty clear that many of us feel down and demoralized on the FISA issue. Why are you so determined to rub our faces in it? It doesn't become you.

I'm going to go watch some television with my kids. I'd forgotten how mean it can get here. See ya.

PS Whatever you say about the Constitution is true--I suppose I don't know as much as you do about it, although I remember learning about that privacy being derived out of several amendments in a Con Law class I took in 1983. That's a long time ago. If it's important to you, I concede whatever point you were after. But you don't need to lecture me about the value of Glenn Greenwald. He is an icon here that I treasure, and I am aware of his diverse following.

Or is it where the beached whales wallow?

Joan, oh my, folding so soon? Usually this time of the year that is the venue of the Chicago Cubs.

Get over it, we have a nation to save!

He was right. The wire-tapping isn't 'illegal' anymore...

"Amurikans may not understand FISA, but they do understand a principled stand and the strength that it conveys."

No, what the American voter will understand is that Obama voted to give the terrorists more freedoms. They'll believe that because it will be repeated on TV and on Radio over and over and over again.

I fully agree that he couldn't just vote no on FISA and simply say it was the right thing to do. He should have made it a central theme of his campaign and relentlessly harped on it. Instead I think his campaign took the "safe" path by going along to get along, thereby destroying any pretense of him being anything other than a politician of the democratic flavor.

And yeah, I'm disappointed.

I'm voting for Obama anyway. I believe nothing less than our survival is at stake in this election, and that John McCain would finish what Bush has tried so hard to start. With Obama, I feel we have a much better chance. I agree with him on most things, if not this one. I don't agree with McCain on ANYTHING.

Next to 935 lies (or whatever the precise number is) to goad us into an unnessary, immoral, illegal war we absolutely did not need over weapons that were not there, a vote for this bill feels like small potatoes in the annals of public betrayal. I wish I'd seen THIS much outrage at Bush before we invaded Iraq. I'm sure as hell NOT voting for McCain who seems ominously EAGER to go to war with Iran. I guess because the Iraq war has been such a tactical, political and economical success, to date. And because just when we'd do well to pay attention to the mess in Afghanistan where our attention SHOULD have been all along, we don't have the men or money to devote to it.

John McCain can barely get his presidential campaign off the ground. Am I going to trust him with running the country? I don't think so! I think he'll gleefully trample all over ALL our rights, and I'm fed up to the gill slits with incompetent Republican war mongers.