I can't with confidence answer your question, but I don't think any lounge chair lawyers in a Salon Letters forum are gonna enlighten you much either. Seek more authoritative sources elsewhere.

I seldom ask a question if I don't already know the answer :)

As you just conceded, the private companies involved were acting as agents of the government, thus making them subject to constitutional law - including the right to redress of grievances.

Their lawyers' opinion was just that, an opinion that needed testing in court.

telecoms could show that they were acting in good faith these suits would be thrown out. I'm no big fan of corporations but honestly the responsible party would seem to be the federal government.

Also, appeals courts have already said that only individuals that could show that they were spied on could bring suit. Under those conditions, these lawsuits would be thrown out for that as well.

But someone suing the government could ask a court to have the telecoms examine their records to see if they were spied on. Giving the telecoms immunity would prevent them from claiming 5th amendment protections or protections from liability.

The Constitutional protections in this case prevents the government from using evidence recovered illegally (in this case by a government agent) from being used against a defendant in a court of law.

I can't recall a single government agent prosecuted for acting in good faith.

The guy who broke into your house is charged with breaking and entering and then thrown in jail, the police are charged with comissioning a crime (Being a cop wouldn't change that) and would probably follow the B&E artist to prison, the department is sued for its part in the whole affair, and any evidence gained is deemed inadmissable.

The reason you don't sue the individual doing the B&E job is more one of practical considerations - that person doesn't have enough money to make it worthwhile.

However, an individual who violates your constitutional rights is still subject to being sued themselves. Famous examples include OJ Simpson, the KKK and various cases involving celebrities suing the press.

Wow! If Obama as the presumptive nominee (mind you, not the nominee) doesn't give rat leavings for your opinions, abandoning core Democratic values and beliefs with abandoned care and embracing Republican and GWB's policies, what makes you think he will give goat leaving once he's elected POTUS?

Why did you have you drawers in knots when it were GWB and Cheney pissing on the Constitution, but cannot excuse and forgive Obama and the Democratic-led Congress for doing the same? Take Keith Olbermann, as an example. In January, he couldn't foam and froth enough in his rants and diatribes, even invoking fascism and Hitler, when it was Bush; only now to mellow and put a positive spin on the same FISA Bill (the Obama spin notwithstahding, the Bill contains the same language then and now!) because Obama is for it! Bush That's hypocrisy and lack of principles, in my book!

But again, I'm not surprised at the reaction of Obama supporters. Like their candidate, they have no core principles, values or beliefs; meaning they won't know or care when these are calculatedly betrayed, abandoned or reversed for political convenience. To Obama supporters and Obama, go on convincing yourselves that this doesn't matter, allow yourselves to be fooled by irrelevant polls, continue using tired old talking points about Obama being better than McCain when the facts tell us they are the same Bush-lite, and continue to disrespect voters and underestimate their intelligence. Come November they will teach you and Obama a lesson for your arrogance and for taking them for granted!

I've disagreed with you on many occasions, Joan - the continual Obama vs. Hillary mud wrestling is like a needle in my brain - but this is one time an ITYS (I told you so) is justified.

To those who want Obama to "win at any cost": It is more than disturbing that you're willing to cavalierly throw the Fourth Amendment into the cart on your way to check out. Go shop somewhere else and leave our Constitution alone.

And blindly following any politician - much less a possible President - is a dangerous path. Questioning and inquiry are healthy exercises in a republic. Unless, of course, you like the way bush has conducted his binary, Imperial presidency.

And, yeah, I'm an Obama supporter...but one with eyes wide open.

Good faith would be an issue that would have to be established in court - and given the nature of the case it is not clear that the courts would have found that the telecoms involved acted in good faith.

Further, why legislate immunity for those telecoms if there is no case to answer?

Thank you Joan for saying it so well. The dew is off the rose, and Obama's thorns are becoming quite evident. There is no true progressive leader in this country, and we were foolish to believe Obama was one. He's just another hypocritical hack, only with loftier pretensions than most of the others. I was going to campaign for him this fall, but no longer.

You have the choice between two candidates, that's it. Nobody is going to come around magically and give you a third choice. If you want a third choice you need to establish a third party first. There is no shortcut - it takes time, determination and lots of work.

Similarly if you want one of the existing parties to produce better candidates: you need to put in lots of work, continuously vote for the better choice and it will still take lots of time.

I think between now and November the Salonistas will forgive Obama. At least enough to vote for him.

Joan--

You wrote what I've been thinking. I called my representative (Steve Kagen) and one of my senators (Herb Kohl) before their FISA votes, as well as Reid, Hoyer, and Pelosi to express my opinion on the upcoming vote: "I did not vote for you (or Democrats) so you can work to cover up Republican wrongdoing."

And like you I don't feel like there are any other choices better than Obama. I started out as an Edwards supporter in the primaries, switched to Clinton when Edwards dropped out, and now I'm stuck with the least progressive Democrat getting into bed with the rightwing nutcases of the Republican Party. I am deeply disappointed in Obama. Caving in to Republicans is not a "new kind of politics:; it is the same old stuff that's been going on since 2001. I want to vote for a Democrat who has principles and sticks to them.