Some of the idiots already have their blindfolds on.

If we don't hold Obama accountable for his decisions, how are we any different to the blind followers of Bush?

Unfortunately, it seems like a choice between endorsing the capitulation that took place today, or forcing the Democrats ever rightward by voting for someone else.

I really don't know a better way to describe it.

You claim to be attracted to Obama because he can reach across the aisle, but you have no patience for the disgust of we who are on the same side of the aisle, who are progressives and *were* Obama supporters. You raise the specter of McCain to justify my abandoning my basic political values in loyalty to Obama. But I believe the trashing of the constitution by a so-called progressive is far more damaging than the same action by a neocon, because it defines the political mainstream in terms of a willingness to give up civil liberties. When a neocon acts like a neocon, it marks the point of political conflict that we must engage; when a so-called progressive leader does so, it creates a destructive aura of consensus. We are left to either accept the capitulation or fight, as we are now doing among ourselves. At no point did I support, nor could I tolerate HRC (or Joan Walsh for that matter), but Obama's refusal to defend the constitution, the very task he must pledge to undertake as president, is to my mind unforgiveable--no less so, in fact, than the authorization of the war.

See Gail Collins' op-ed in the New York Times. She nailed it better than I could ever hope to.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/10/opinion/10collins.html

Do you feel like a blind follower?

Here's the thing, Bush governed in a way that appealed directly to his base. And these people, like Bush, have little regard for the Constitution. Bush once called it just a piece of paper.

Regardless of this vote, I don't see how any intelligent person could think Obama will go down the same path as Bush, or McCain for that matter.

Obama's not perfect. He's getting advice on what he needs to do to get elected and rightly or wrongly, he's following it.

Strangely enough, McCain didn't even show up for the vote.

We aren't going to silence our doubts about dear leader simply because it might hurt him in the general.

We aren't voting for the guy because we like his face or feel all that inspired by his speeches. We are voting for policy, ability and the courage to use both.

Obama can still win back his appeal, and win the election.

But unless we voice concern now about the direction he is going in, and about what he is doing to negate his appeal, he will either lose, or be another Bush in the Whitehouse.

Groupthink - the concept that unity is more important than achieving an end result - has historically proved to be disasterous for America. The end result we liberals are aiming for is not Obama as president, he is merely a means to an end.

What we are aiming for is withdrawal from Iraq, a return to America's Constitution meaning something, cutting the national deficit and making sure that there is never another Bush presidency - where the president is above the law - or telecoms-style corporatocracy where if a company is big enough, it is above the law.

Obama's FISA vote basically went against half the issues that we as liberals are voting on - and what is worse it goes against certain core things in Obama's background that we liked.

We liked that Obama was willing to tell inconvenient truths - such as his speech on the war. We liked his grounding in Constitutional law (A frequently ignored part of this is with any politician who did not have that grounding, we wouldn't be as angry. Obama on the other hand, taught Constitutional law) and we liked the considered responses we got from him on policy.

He can still salvage himself as a candidate, but not if he continues to echo Lamont v Lieberman. He needs to stand firm and show that there is still the Obama who spoke against the war in there, because that is the Obama that got America talking.

Not this spineless weasel who worries about Republican attack adds.

I never said I supported Obama because he could work with Republicans. I've supported Obama from the beginning because I'm a Democratic elected official in Illinois.

What I said is that he was perceived as different because he eschewed labels and believed in compromise. His speech at the Dem Nat Convention was a preview. Independents and the young felt like here was a politician that would just work to get stuff done. He was a break from the 90's and Bush v Gore.

The left supported him after Edwards dropped out and Clinton wouldn't apologise for her Iraq war vote.

Now the left feels like he has betrayed them. My contention is that the young voters and the independent voters who supported Obama because of his willingness to move beyond partisanship don't feel betrayed by this vote.

And as the campaign moves forward and Obama strengthens his committment to end the war in Iraq, the sting of this vote will fade as well.

I have a friend who, like me, is a big civil libertarian. He loves the Constitution and believes in the most expansive interpretations of Liberty therein. He hates the "daddy" government of the Republicans - the repressive methods excused by the claims of pervasive danger (growing police powers, surveillance everywhere, defacto "travel papers", "unitary Executive"...). He sees McCain as a dangerous continuation of these policies.

However, my friend will not vote for Obama over McCain. Why? Because he has a "cause" Obama does not fully support. If a politician is not 100% in support of his cause he will not vote for them. 99% is not enough.

My friend will vote against self-interest and against many of his own beliefs because McCain is 100% on his side and Obama is only 80% on his side on one issue.

This is what I see in those I hear say, "Obama did not go all the way on the FISA issue, so I will not vote for him." It reminds me of all of the working class people without health care and scraping by on two jobs who have been voting Republican (against their self-interest) because Republicans are more "pro-life" than Democrats. It is just self-defeating.

Anyone who thinks Obama will not steer the country away from the totalitarian/Unitary Executive path is blinded by the same self-defeating orthodoxy as my friend. I just hope to God that there aren't many of you. I don't want another 4 or 8 years of purposeful destruction of our country and its foundations from the Executive Branch, or another 30 years of Constitution shredding from the Supreme Court after McCain gets to replace 2 or three justices.