I'm listening, but nothing that you wrote really resonates with me.

I'm sure he couldn't resist that.

I admire Hillary's stance on gas tax relief. At first I was skeptical, but she is truly putting people first. She is really listening to people who are hurting now. As someone who is behind on my credit card bill, every little bit counts, and I appreciate how she is interested in short term and long term economic policies that would help.

She is willing to be criticized for offering to try and help people - and have big oil profits pay instead.

A lot of the "experts" are in their cushy positions and out of touch with the people, and they aren't really getting it. It's not a "major" policy.

She's standing up for the people. Like she says she will.

*Got to go*

*Goodnight*

Yes. He was exciting and powerful. He remains an example for me of what a politician can be.

Maybe he lost to Pataki (more than any specific issue) just because he'd been there too long. Is there a point where a politician loses the battle against everything that happens enough that people start wanting an alternative.

Which would in no way critique his policy positions or political style.

Re Trust and Mutual Goals: to me this is the most important aspect of what Obama is offering. The Bush years have been a study in lying about what you really want because you know you'll never get it if you tell the truth. And it has resulted in a war that we'll end up "losing" like we did in Vietnam, not because the anti-war crowd betrayed the cause, or we "surrendered" or "retreated" or anything like that, but just because it doesn't make sense any more. The ruses that sustained it for these years, and the very compelling wish not to write down such mammoth and heart breaking losses that has strengthened the rationalizations supporting those ruses, will finally simply wear out. And we'll just leave.

It's just a failed policy.

Without open campaigning for specific goals, without creating some kind of mandate for important national undertakings (war, a competent education system, health care), aren't we always at susceptible to failing in this way?

So even with the risk that we do not know as much about Obama as we do about Clinton, and that he might turn out to be all hat and no cattle, it seems like a prudent risk to take.

Because what we're increasingly knowing about Clinton, is that she's anything but forthright. How could she build a mandate? Her mode of competition forecloses the possibility.

I guess you bought that one.

I really like your style. You managed to promote your candidate without putting my down. Thanks for that.

You know to ignore manos, right?

(No offense manos)

my heart is just breakin'.

You make a good point about the allure of Obama's "purity" on the war, and your "good German" analogy touches home for me.

BUT, I worry that you're attracted to the "hard worker" over the talent. This idea of hard work seems kind of odd to me. It seems like a meme we've heard too much of in recent years. Ditto fortitude and brass balls, etc.

And the rookie argument? It doesn't really hold water. Example: Bill. (You might say, "Yeah, but he was governor for 12 years," but I don't see how that experience is any more important than Obama's work organizing, in the state senate and in the U.S. Senate.)

But the point about guilt and the impulse to reach for the guy that might make you feel innocent again. That strikes me as pretty powerful.

That, and spousal experience?

Was there anything else I missed?

First of all, I absolutely understand where you're coming from in wrestling with this issue, so no explanation necessary with me on that count.

"I'm particularly sensitive to that last b/c I've always felt like that's how we got into the first Gulf War--a whole pride, not wanting to back down to our enemies thing. And kids got killed over that! It always amazes me."

I remember vividly Bush getting up there in his "Mission Accomplished" moment (only in that case, it actually was) and crowing, "By God we've kicked that Vietnam syndrome!"

It reinforced the basic leftist suspicion that the war was at least as much about showing off our new toys and, indeed, Vietnam redemption than it was about "liberating Kuwait." But whatever it was about, that he should use that hour to crow about "kicking that Vietnam syndrome" was chilling.

Ugh--I'm honestly all confused. But to be clear, this was never a make-or-break issue for me, just an intellectual exercise to exorcise a nagging dissonance in my brain."

Crystal clear.

"Perhaps I can sum up my own conclusion, which is that Hillary is capable of getting together with enemies and former enemies when necessary, and I'm honestly comforted by that ability, but her motives are political and her goals (on some issues) still do not match mine. It's really interesting to imagine how this particular question--whether HRC would be using FOX News--would be answered would she be comfortably in first place."

Yes, it is and you're right, her willingness to meet with enemies is comforting in principle.

"As far as the pandering (flag burning, etc.), I think they both do it, but I agree that Hillary does it more. Nobody quite knows whether her hawkish positions are pandering or genuine hawkish tendencies, or a little of both, but there's all kinds of other right-wing kind of stuff."

Of course they both do it.

It's a matter of degree and significance.

For instance, I find it a pander to say "God bless America" but it's such a tame one, relatively speaking, I just tune it out. I can live with it.

"On the abortion thing weeping, it was that she came out a few years ago seeming all middle-groundish, saying that we all want the same outcome, which is fewer abortions. It was honestly no different than Bill Clinton's "safe, legal, and rare," and I remember feeling frustrated that the press treated it like it was something new. Some feminists felt that the "rare" shouldn't even come into the lexicon--that abortion can and should be unapologetically employed, etc., but I am more of the Clinton thinking on that particular issue. That is, let's actually try to reduce them but not use legislation--rather attempt prevention through contraception, education, etc.

Thanks. Fair enough.

"As for Obama pandering, he's done a little in terms of NAFTA and even Iraq exit strategy, imo. I'm glad for those two b/c I prefer his unspoken policies on both to the strict campaign-speak going on. It's always interesting how much we choose to believe out of the mouths of our preferred candidates.

Hardest thing in the world, to develop trust with people who want your vote.

"Weeping--I absolutely loved Mario Cuomo. He was my gov. too, but I'm older than you by 10, if I remember correctly. (OK, 11 but who's counting)."

Certainly not me!

I so remember him talking about how important it was to raise kids with the notion of giving back to others and the community, and of course I always remember his principled stand on the death penalty.

He, as much as Martin Luther King, was a serious role model to me.

I'm really tired, guys, and not sure I'm even making sense any more. It's been a great discussion tonight. Weeping, I want to talk lots more with you later about Wright and racism--you seem really angry and, dare I say, bitter, about it, and I can only say I agree with you 100%. I feel great resentment about the lack of nuance on this issue."

You goddamned right I'm bitter! :)

I'm happy to talk about this anytime.

Feel free to email, as well: weeping_for_brunnhilde at yahoo.

'Night.