read all about it in Salon

Now Obama has risked alienating the powerful lady-hunter demographic. He is doomed! The only reasonable thing for Americans to do now is to vote for McCain. Four More Years! Four More Years!

Can't remember where I read up on some Annie Oakley stories; google might have a few. They are outright crazy amazing. If I remember correctly her weapon of choice was the rifle, at least in shows.

And to be honest, I think it was time for Obama to be a little snide. Hillary needed to be called on her pandering (though I suspect she was, or is, quite a party girl). I wouldn't make it a campaign story, but apparently the crowd of the moment laughed at the joke. Obama has to prove that he isn't a wuss, that he won't just stand there and take it like Kerry did. If he goes too far it will look bad, but if he just takes it, it will be bad as well.

Joan, you're starting to freak me out. It's almost like wish fulfillment...keep saying that...OMG!...Obabma really did make a major gaffe...Is he electable? Trustworthy? Too arrogant?

Weird.

Then you blame screeds like mine (as it were) on blind Obama support. Yet, like a scab, you insist on picking, picking, picking. Wasted energy all.

Meanwhile...back at the White House...more war crimes are being prepared (Iran anyone)? And Hillary cravenly (sue me) keeps plying tactics from Karl Rove's playbook, a win-at-all costs strategy.

Ergh, I used to love Salon. Huffington Post anyone?

A few of your words: "self-righteousness to all true believers, and clearly nasty Clinton supporters are driving some great Obama supporters round the bend on these threads...the nasty Obama zealots...I support Clinton!" Wow, not my self image, but hey, who knows. Pollitics does funny things to even the most self-respecting of us. But it would be so nice if you would tell us who some of the "nasty Clinton zeslots" might be. Perhaps there are none. Joan, it is indeed late, and you should go to bed. You're sounding too much like your idol, and that ain't good. I almost used the word "hysterical," but then you'd think "sexist." How about just plain "dishonest"?

Thanks, artieshawjr, but it's only 10 pm here in SF, and that's well before my bed time. Maybe you're projecting! It happens on these threads, a lot. But I appreciate your concern about me.

I'm still thinking, but:

For the sake of discussion let's say that you are spot on, that there are more awful obama supporters than Hillary ones. Let's even just take it for granted that that the awful Obama supporters are awful in the way you describe; they are smug, elitist and really look down on anybody who doesn't agree with them. Taking that, for now, as a proven fact:

Even if Obama has a higher percentage of awful supporters than the average presidential candidate, how much does that inform us about the nature of the man (in this case) himself? And how much does that inform us about the effect his policies will have on the health care system, on foreign policy, on new economic steps, on education, on race, sex and other issues? If we assume that Obama has 8% more awful supporters than most presidential candidates, based on that, how much do we know about the reasons we should or should not vote for him?

I've guessed before that you focus on this fact because you are concerned solely with strategy, that you simply are trying to figure out how perception will affect the democratic nominee. This is partly why I think if Hillary was in the lead you would be seriously concerned with how she is perceived. It would help me so much if I knew that you really were coming form this basic strategic question because then I would not get agitated by why I perceive as an odd over-focus on how Obama can be percieved negatively.

But I also have to give you credit: there is no way that you are only thinking strategically. Your concern about the higher percentage of awful Obama supporters (let's say 9% higher) must also be connected with ideas you have about what this actually means about his potential presidency. I really want to know your thoughts about this. I also want to know your strategy thoughts, but that leads to questions about Hillary's downside as well and I'm not all that interested in spending much more time talking about negative Hillary perception. I think there is a useful conversation to be had about what the higher percentage of negative Obama supporters says about the affects he will have on our country if he is the person walking off of Air Force One.

I'm practically a charter subscriber to Salon and will remain a subscriber. That said, Joan Walsh has jumped and humped the shark. Well, what she has become is the Tina Brown of online magazine publishing. If an observation like that makes me an elitist, out of touch snob, then so be it. Seattle has been cooler than San Francisco for years now. Flame away.

Hey Joan, I'm in the same time zone, but a good bit older than you...thus the "early" bed time. If I may offer some thoughtful advice, or at least an observation, the specific hour (10 pm in our case) has little to do with the obvious need for sleep. Trust me, you need to go to bed. Tomorrow's a new day, and if you really want to look on the bright side, it won't be long before your idol will be out of it (officially). I assume you will find less to love in McCain than O, and all of the zealots will have vanished. A nice thought for both of us. Sleep tight.

Joan, I'm not entirely sure I'm right, in any sense beyond my personal worldview, where plenty of conviction exists. All I can ask is that we attempt to examine this stuff in ourselves and others as best we can without getting hung up on it and try to remember that there is strength in numbers. The "rationalists" always want to elect candidates based on issues and intellect, but it always seems to come down to the non-rational tribal primate ritual stuff as the arbiter. I could do with less dung-flinging though. To briefly indulge in the language of omens and portent, many people feel in their bones that this election cycle is significant, a game changer for good or ill. Our great experiment is at a crossroads. More of us are awake and participating than usual, judging by turnout, and the intensity level seems higher. That may explain some of the emotion.

Politics is a team sport, so at some point in the next few months, we'll have to suit up and look the other way on a bunch of stuff if we are to have any chance of prevailing in November and beyond.