"we do say, "let's change" and it happens. It takes work. Hard work."

AKA Smith: "Hutman doesn't have a single statement by Obama indicating that he is a feminist. Not one."

You didn't deny what I asserted, and you didn't ask for evidence. Now you're claiming I somehow backed down on providing evidence? WELL MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE ASKED FOR SOME.

Since I don't have a lot of time to do your research for you at the moment, I can only say go to Obama's web site, or do a basic Google search on Obama's voting record and policy positions, and you will find Obama backing feminist causes again and again and again. And sure, Michelle Obama isn't running for president, but knowing what a staunch feminist she is, and what (in my opinion) a solid role model of a successful and intelligent woman, I think it does say something about Obama that she's his life partner. At least to some extent.

AKA Smith: "Hutman, I never said anything about your own particular feminism."

Hey, you brought this up. Not me.

AKA Smith: "You have never expanded upon it under the Hutman name, but if you have ever used the words "victim feminist" with your lip curled, you are part of the problem."

Can't recall using that term.

AKA Smith: "Libertarian feminism is not feminism."

I never used the term "libertarian feminism." But I was registered as libertarian up until a few years ago, based primarily on a general outlook of being economically conservative but totally liberal on civil-liberties issues. Then after a while I got really annoyed with the actual libertarian party and its adherents, and said "I'm outtie" and registered Independent because I was also really annoyed with the Democrats who were basically doing everything they could to forcibly expel the spines from their own bodies.

AKA Smith: "If you want to disavow libertarian feminism despite your libertarian-leanings, then I have no problem with you."

Maybe I would, if I had any idea how you defined "libertarian feminism."

Now your notions of forgiveness, despite the fact that you did not establish a cause of sin are at least interesting. I mostly believe that forgiveness requires a process both for the one in need of forgiving and the would-be forgiver.

However, sincerely supporting Senator Clinton is no sin.

Renegade Iconoclast: "Keep up the good work! Maybe lay off Smith a little, out of all the outspoken Clinton supporters here, she's at least the most genuine. She may go off the deep end sometimes, but in the end, she is going to vote for Obama in the GE just like we are (seeing as Hillary has slightly better than zero chance of winning the primary)."

AKA Smith is a mixed bag. The problem with her is, she will read the previous sentence and immediately assume that I mean the word "bag" as a sexist slur.

Renegade Iconoclast: "I particularly loved your 4 part answer to the Traister nonsense (Obama boys)..."

I'm glad somebody read it! Nobody responded, but then again, it WAS four freaking pages long (on page 142 of the Traister piece's comments section, if anybody is curious).

Renegade Iconoclast: "...although I thought you gave her a little more credit than deserved. The only articles from Traister I've ever liked have been the ones that are just about culture or emotions or movies or other soft topics."

I wanted to give Traister some credit because she obviously spent some time on that piece, and you know, she did include some caveats about Hillary Clinton's screw-ups, and so on. Plus I know she was reading the responses, and I would rather the writer walk away from the comments thinking that somebody gave reasonable criticism than walk away feeling hurt and insulted. (Though I've spewed my share of such comments.)

Renegade Iconoclast: "Her Valentine's day article was particularly charming."

Yeah, that was the gnocchi one, right? She did a piece about Michelle Obama a while back that was very good. She actually went and hunt out with her. Salon is at its best when it's reporting, not think-piecing.

Renegade: "Any time she opens her mouth about feminism or politics, otoh, I mean, could she be anymore sensationalist, factless, or inane in focus?"

I don't disagree. I get a sense that the writers follow the lead of their editor...

Renegade Iconoclast: "Anyway, you're quite the rhetorician. Consider public office, if you haven't."

Thanks! And I will politely decline!

good luck and god bless.

Sorry for trying to help you. Hopefully you get it when you grow-up. I'm not buying yoru ignorance. I can't be any clearer. Read the posts page 40 on again and again until you get it

as being an avowed feminist. Being married to a feminist does not make a man a feminist.

When you say that Obama is a feminist, then I am looking for a specific statement in which Obama has the guts to say that he is a feminist. I am looking for that because it is not popular to be a feminist. Obama would lose some of his bully boy supporters if he said that, wouldn't he?

AKA Smith: "Xrandadu Hutman, voting for women's causes is not the same thing ... as being an avowed feminist. Being married to a feminist does not make a man a feminist."

I really gotta get going, but I agree, those things alone do not make somebody a "feminist." But they sure count for something, don't they? At this point I think it's fair to ask you how you define feminism, since proactively supporting women's causes and whatnot fall so short for your definition.

AKA Smith: "When you say that Obama is a feminist, then I am looking for a specific statement in which Obama has the guts to say that he is a feminist. I am looking for that because it is not popular to be a feminist. Obama would lose some of his bully boy supporters if he said that, wouldn't he?"

So it would seem you define "feminist" as a person who says "I am a FEMINIST!" out loud. I would hope there's more to your definition than that.

I dunno, maybe you should Google "Obama" and "feminism" and see what comes up. I am sure it would be instructive.

Anyway, this whole conversation roots back to your statement that you're voting for Clinton because you're a woman. Keeping that in mind, I do think you should consider that whether or not he fits your definition of feminist, Obama would be a very good president in terms of his impact on feminist causes.

Maybe we can continue this conversation at a later time, when I have more time to go find and sift through appropriate evidence that I can copy-and-paste and give web links to. I'm not backing down from this, but I really gotta go -- I have a hot date! (Not really....just something I have to do.)