Letters to the Editor
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Have you been living under a rock?
Internet discussions are rarely all that civil. The only place you get potentially civil discussions are on moderated forums and newsgroups. If your argument isn't strong enough to stand up to the insults and hyperbole, then your argument is pretty worthless.
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One other quick thing
Oh... meant also to say that it seems to me that "managing civility," as a previous poster has put it, in no way amounts to censorship. Far from it, i think managing civility is a responsibility of a forum such as Salon. Far from impinging on free speech, it would protect and defend it by denying access to those who care not about free expression but only about ego validation.
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Social Idiocy, Part Deux
What I wanted to say before sleep compelled me to quit was that one cannot expect civility in a society wracked with the kind socio-political inequalities that exist in America. It is precisely the class status of Salon writers like Gary Kamiya which blind them to this unpleasant social reality and allow them to make such pious but ultimately utopian pleas. I read Salon because I want to get the pulse of the limousine liberal, and articles like this reinforce the fact that as these inequalities intensify, Salon and the upper middle class (read: very well off) perspective it champions becomes increasingly divorced from reality, and decries it whenever the effects of these inequalities impinges upon their rarefied and conformable milieu. The era of social reformism based on American economic hegemony is over. The ugly face of capitalism in crisis is well advanced.
P.S...Not only is Gary's social perspective distorted, but his historical recollection is poor. I remember the late 70's and people were far more civil, albeit less politically correct.
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"commons" are maintained in large part by a healthy dose of ignoring the annoying and tolerating the noise of the children's games, the dogs barking, etc.
Yes, I think it would be helpful for comments to be "branched" so that there isn't quite so much intrusion into "general topic related" conversation by those with special interests ...
I find most -- and I do not mean ALL -- troll/energy creature posts to be fairly obvious ... and the answer, of course, is to not responds ... but most of the time SOMEONE (generally someone who DOES know better but who either is apparently bored, smug or in need of some sort of pathetic self-validation) DOES RESPOND and -- like a horse race -- THEY'RE OFF ...
Imho it's a mistake to confuse "taggers" with trolls ... and in some areas of Salon, there are "energy-creature" posters who I now regard as practically "house trolls" or mascots.
I'm inclined to think that in fact most people really don't have much to say after their first REACTIVE post/letter ...
Salon did promise not to make TableTalk redundant and anemic by expanding their LETTERS section into an designated "chat" or discussion forum ... a promise made with the expansion of letters a few years ago and largely ignored.
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Get rid of letters, push everyone to TT
Where they pay and make it clear that even where you pay you can get kicked off at will at any time, no refunds. Then print a list of rules. Most importantly, pick favorites, and enforce the rules capriciously - that way the level of random terror will help keep everyone in line.
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Manners are not
"an artificial construct, rooted in class structures that no longer exist" which isn't to say that there aren't elements of that. You almost get to the correct answer on page 2. To put it succinctly, manners (or civility if you wish) are the grease that lubricates human interaction. Your car's motor won't run without lubrication, neither will human relations.
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But Nulla...
... that would interfere with TT's charter, which apparently states that Marybeth Williams must not be required to work more than 10 minutes a day.
With such a requirement, there's really no time to do more than check to see that everyone's pinky's extended.
As for making up the rules on the fly and enforcing them capriciously, I say that Marybeth works hard for those 10 minutes, and deserves her fun.
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Manners and Instinct? Ha! (Please)
Gary, while you are often right (or damn close), you are completely off-base with this comment:
"If you're reasonably well brought up, you can pretty much rely on instinct to guide your behavior as you make your way through the world."
Instinct? Hardly. Manners are not instinctual, they are taught. And the problems of bad manners in this country, and the inherent lack of civility that that brings with it, arise from the fact that manners are no longer taught at any level. They are not taught at home where they should be taught, and they surely are not taught in the schools, on the playgrounds, in places of worship, in the work arenas, in the media or at the highest levels of our so-called leadership.
Neither are manners the exclusive domain of those "reasonably well brought up." Surely you've encountered people who were less than reasonably brought up who had a better sense of good manners than selfish little twits of privilege (and you can name your own names here, for sure).
Just for one example, look at the dozens of television ads in which children are disrepectful of, or downright rude to, their parents -- dad is an idiot, mom just doesn't "get it", and children are allowed (even encouraged) to smart-mouth their elders.
Good manners is not simply knowing which fork to eat asparagus with, it is being able to interact with respect for others (and ultimately with respect for one's self), and a clear sense of this makes for a reasoned approach to public discourse.
Do you need any further proof that manners are not instinctive than the fact that dear, wonderful Ms. Manners has serious job security?
I might add that good manners were far more prevalent 30 years ago than they are today, but I see that other posters have already made this point. But I guess one needs to have been around 30+ years ago to know this.
Thank you.
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Classless society
Gary, we don't live in a classless society, so perhaps that is part of your problem.
At any rate, I learn massive amounts from reading the letter posts at Salon and other magazines, like the Guardian. The majority of posters are not dummies, and some are freaking funny. There are always useless trolls with too much time on their hands, and you ignore them, though you'd rather beat the punks to a pulp.
One of the best examples recently was a post by "How the World Works" on electrical lineman. Actual lineman wrote in and gave a very accurate view of their working and educational conditions.
I don't directly engage people in letters, unless they are so far off base that they need to be confronted - and I estimate they are not useless nuts living in their mother's basement. It is the authors who should be engaged...people like you. And I'd say the rudeness on the internet is only a function of the class etc. confrontations so muted in real life. Evidently, the country doesn't have enought 'class' for you.
I'd say, you have to get used to it. But if a troll is a serial offender, and deals in nothing but insults, I would think they can be dealt with.