>>>On the other hand, perhaps Glenn's purpose IS to ascribe some amount of blame to US citizens for these atrocities, to persuade them to do something about it.

I think this is correct. The American government acts in the name of the American citizenry, and "we" the citizenry are responsible for its actions whenever its actions are public knowledge. When the US government tortures people, we are all stained and shamed by this. The blood of the bombed Iraqis and the tortured detainees is on ALL our hands, no matter how vigorously some of us have opposed the policies in question. To be sure, Dick Cheney is more culpable than, say, GG or myself, but we're all responsible for what our government does in our names and with our tax dollars.

Using the phrase "torture debate" isn't using the word "torture" as a verb. In fact using that phrase is almost worse than using euphemisms in that it repeats the fallacy that there is an honest debate about the U.S. government committing torture, past and present, on detainees. David Gregory is very fond of that term "torture debate".

...same as the first.

Keep up the good fight, Glenn.

LMoE

[Maybe the difference is that when they do it, they have a sadistic gleam in their eye, while our guys get teary-eyed at how lucky the poor bastard is to suffer to keep the good guys safe.]

to one and all.

When in the course of human events...

Calling these practices enhanced or brutal interrogation techniques incorrectly assumes that an interrogation is taking place. It is highlly doubtful any of these prisoners are being asked questions while being waterboarded, placed in confined boxes or coffins, hung by their arms, placed in stress positions, subjected to loud music and days of sleeplessness.

No, these "techniques" are designed to physically and mentally break a prisoner down; to subject them to so much suffering and disorientation that they will do anything to make it stop. Only after the process does the interrogation begin. It's what distinguishes interrogation - the actual questioning of prisoners - from torture - being the infliction of emotional and physical pain and suffering.

If the media refuses to call it what it is, but still wants some tiny patina of linguistic logic, they should call it enhanced or brutal softening up teqniques.

Apparently you found that the VOA's use of the phrase "torture debate" was regressive and unhelpful.

I wonder if you read the 2nd segment quoted?

The 2nd broadcast piece quoted specifically references "alleged torture at Guantanamo Bay". That is much more direct than "torture debate".

If the notion that adding in the word "alleged" in a possibly criminal case seems to you inadequate, I would disagree and find it an unimportant distinction, similar to that of journalists & lawyers use of the term "alleged" in relation to charges of murder, rape, robbery, embezzlement, etc.

That it was not used as a verb is not persuasive. I know very well that the U.S. sponsored death squad governments of El Salvador and Guatemala were slaughtering and torturing, but had journalists clearly covered any particular incident potentially involving legal charges against particular individuals I would in no way be bothered by the use of the term "alleged" before convictions or rulings were handed down.

Finally, the point still stands; despite your sensible disappointment with the phrase "torture debate", it remains apparent that the U.S. government broadcaster VOA is clearer and more literal in reporting on instances of alleged torture by or under the command of U.S. officials than the New York Times or NPR.

"It's an interesting point, but I do think the citizenry bears responsibility for the acts of its government, especially where the government is democratically elected and some -- but not much - efforts are expended to stop those practices. It wasn't "the Bush administration" that tortured. It was the United States."-- GlennGreenwald

When I talk to friends or relatives about the abuses done in this country I always say "we" and they used to look at me funny (as in "wee?"... you got a mouse in your pocket?). And I reply WE allowed this to happen when we didn't protest it. Antineocon was voicing his despair over the hopelessness of our government's actions and pondering the futility of getting mad/determined to act on this bullshit and it's my firm belief that that's exactly what they hope for. That means they're winning...

Democracy is work and only those actually doing something concrete about it can bitch and moan. Get involved and activate!

El Cid has the best idea on where to get half assed truthful reporting (VOA). I haven't attempted to listen to it, or even if that's possible here in the States, but I'm going to find out since National Petroleum Radio isn't worth fuck all and hasn't been for years. At least Faux Noise isn't fronting and acting like they're for real. They know they're full of shit and are raking in the dough doing it! Yippee!

Mysterious picture detail at sig. link. What can it be!?1!

Finally, the point still stands; despite your sensible disappointment with the phrase "torture debate", it remains apparent that the U.S. government broadcaster VOA is clearer and more literal in reporting on instances of alleged torture by or under the command of U.S. officials than the New York Times or NPR.

-- El Cid

Yes, I read your entire post. I wasn't in disagreement with what you've addressed in what I've quoted above. For the sake of brevity in my reply to you I was only addressing that with which I disagreed or found lacking. "Torture debate" should be stricken from the dialog since there is no legitimate debate. Your point about their use of the qualifier, "alleged" I am in agreement with. I should have clarified that. Now I am clarifying it.

Glenn,

What torture?

If it's used against Arabs and Muslims...it's not torture.

That's the mantra around the world, not only here in the States.

After all, the Arab and Muslims regime has been using it on their own people for centuries. If the Ayatollahs in Iran can get rattled by the BBC, that's show how very unstable and fragile these regimes are.

There is deep reprehension and distrust of Arabs and Muslims. Remember during the election campaign when Obama did his very best to run as far as possible from his Muslim roots. With all the $trillion they have from the oil, they are demonized as terrorists, backward, irrationals, stupid, weak, you name it. They have to blame themselves. It’s past due time for them to rise up and cleanse themselves of the rotten, illegitimate regimes that rule them with iron fists, and show the world they belong as FREE people with dignity….. then the world will respect them back.

They have a long way to go before they can ask or demand respect form others.