about the big issues of the day, especially those that pertain to the so-called "intent" of the founders, is how out of sync so many beliefs about the founders' "intent" are with what they actually said and believed. While they clearly disagreed with each other about many specifics, e.g. the allocation of power between states and the federal government, slavery, the design of the country's financial system, etc., they were almost all fairly liberal in their political outlooks, not only by their day's standards but by ours.

They would, I'm sure, have been horrified by not only the sanctioned use of torture by our government, but by the fact that there was even a debate being carried out about its legitimacy and efficacy. Not that anti-liberal things didn't take place back then, like the execution of POWs and Adam's Alien and Sedition Act--and, of course, the institution of slavery--but the founders made a conscious effort to make the country as liberal as was possible at the time, with some of them clearly looking forward to the day when it could become even more liberal, with the freeing of slaves, universal suffrage, etc.

And yet we have authoritarian ideological thugs lecturing to us about what this country is really all about, invariably with a huge flag draped behind them and adopting a very grave and sober tone of voice, in ways that bear absolutely zero relationship to the founders' vision of America. Especially on a day like today, I find this to be egregious and deplorable. It's like they're these pre-Revolutionary (pre-Magna Carta, really) ideological mutants who crawled out of some cave, intent on taking us back centuries to a time way before 1776, and yet they pretend to celebrate the spirit of 1776, which they know nothing about and in no way represent or believe in.

Sadly, the media, and many political leaders, have internalized their dishonest and dangerous misrepresentation of (the prodominantly LIBERAL) history of America's founding, and made it appear to represent reality, when it most certainly does not. While we need not be bound by all of the founders' ideas and attitudes, especially the more hypocritical ones, generally speaking, they were political liberals, and this country was founded on liberal priciples, not conservative let alone authoritarian ones. Among which were the respect for life, truth, and the rule of law.

On a day like today, it's especially important to remember that. We've clearly failed to live up to the ideals of that day on all too many occasions, but the ideals still remain, begging to be fulfilled, not trampled on, denied, ignored, or distorted beyond all recognition, to serve some other, innoble purpose, be it US imperialism, winning elections, or selling newspapers.

They have to appeal to everyone.
So, people don't worry esoteric theological points at Christmas or engage in heated affirmative action debates on Martin Luther King Day. We don't invoke Tough Love on our children's birthdays or curse out our country's failings on its own.
True, omooex, most folks don't regard "pathetically confused" as a compliment, but I realize, you HAVE to make a disclaimer if you wish to defend me. Thanks. It's odd, since you DO have a dog in this fight, but if necessary, we could come to a modus vivendi. Hopefully that will happen with the people who matter.

There are three things evident in how Obama intends to 'serve'.

Obama is going to be even more secretive than Bush at his worst and will keep what he is doing under the radar forcing the people to root through the public record (what is not classified) to find out what he is doing.

Trickle down economics is alive and well.

He will bargain away all programs to a non-existent opposition.

I just went out with a few friends to the lake and we set off some fireworks and some Germans on the Promenade thought we have lost our mind and they wanted to call "die Polizei" and when they heard us speaking 'the American' an old dude said:Ah! "Fourth of July" - and a younger lady with a sunburn told us: You got a great new president and some kids started to yell: "Yes we can" and I really didn't have the nerve to tell them that I'm really disappointed in the big O - because "Americans are always so 'positive' and 'optimistic' about everything" (that's what they think over here) and Germans are always disappointed about everything and everybody and - and I didn't want to 'out' myself as being 'germanic' - or a follower of the tribe of doom. And as I already have said everything possibly about my disgrace with 'torture' - and I have nothing more to offer I thought about this great post I read on UT the other day: "If you look at the historical record of the US you can indeed find

it all: genocide, murder, slavery and multiple other horrors. But I fail to see how that negates what continues to be unique, admirable and important in that country's founding" - and

that's why I wish everybody a great INDEPENDENCE day! - And let me torture you all again with the great "Gloved One" -

Can you imagine I once thought the dude was a joke? - And now I had to realize he started a revolution with the most powerful 'tool' of all: Superficial Entertainment -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ-Y6xrkNvg

I appreciate your posts, and I have no objection to your last one in response to me.

When adnoto or heru-ur (sp?) or I or anyone else points to how corrupt everything is, I don't see how it's terribly helpful to angrily ask them what they're doing about it or to suggest (as I've seen many do here) that we're all talk and no action ... especially when such accusers have no real, certain, and dynamic solutions themselves.

It's apparent to me that the unprincipled, greedy elite have always preyed upon the rest of us, and the only possible solution to this problem that I can see is to live and speak truth, in hopes of convincing others to see the truth in big enough quantities to effect mass behavior in a way that might change society. But when the unprincipled, greedy elite have bought up all the power structures (including the media) and therefore have a psychological lock on the majority of the populace, what can one do to viably compete with their lying and/or misguided propaganda? Violent revolution? In this new technological era of the eternally shrinking power of the individual?

I'm not a violent man, not unless I'm cornered violently enough. And, the internet (featuring leaders like Greenwald) gives me hope that we're not even perfectly cornered propaganda-wise, yet. Still and all, sometimes I wonder what I'm doing here (alive on Earth)... and the answer from my muses is always the same: strive to inspire others to goodness and wisdom, and away from greed and ignorance.

To go back to a more concrete point: The reason I chose Nader over Obama is because, even though Obama was magnetic and inspiring and had a good chance of winning, his rhetoric was mainly hopeful platitudes in comparison to Nader's which seemed to much more completely address one of the main manifestations of the root our problems (the corporatist state).