You've admitted that I was basically correct, but then you go ahead and justify a vote based on obvious conning anyway.

That's an obvious mischaracterization of the justification I made for voting for Obama. You can go back and read the justifications if you like, they weren't based on issues of national security or constitutional rights, which I argued would be the same no matter who we voted for. There are factors in our lives--libraries, affordable universities and reasonable financial aid to access them,and lots of etcetera--that we ignore until they're gone. Those are things Democrats have an indisputable mandate to maintain, and which, if they weren't accesible would impoverish our political discourse even further.

I had a difficult time choosing between Obama and Nader myself, but I did choose Nader and it's being proven to me daily that I was correct in that choice.

Well, you got me. I don't understand you're reasoning.

Finally, my point was that the electoral process is not going to be the way out of this. If you're voting for a third party hoping that they're going to take a new perspective, then the last thirty years of third party activity at the national level [not local, where there are successes] should really make you pause. If you're arguing that the end goal of voting was to resolve a moral question for you, then you've succeeded in resolving that moral question and I can only offer you my congratulations.

However, my question was: HOW DO YOU CHANGE THINGS?

The problem is you are not voting for either a man or a party. You are voting for two candidates who represent the corporations that funded their campaigns. Both will ultimately represent the corporations that put them in office, not the people who were duped by the propaganda the corporations paid for. That is why many corporations donate to both candidates. they are voting with those huge contributions they give that individuals can't possibly match. They are simply hedging their bets and trying to put both under their thumb.

Sure most here at UT will vote Democratic until they die. My wife, who does not always vote Democratic, has already pretty much decided to vote a straight Democratic ticket again in the 2010 elections. Why, I ask. The answer? "What else can one do?"

Damn.

I will most likely not vote for one of the two parties at the national level again. I may not even vote again. The system is badly broken and we are just rearranging the deck chairs as we go down the tubes.(*)

I see the local twits are yelling at Adnoto again because he is not trying to assassinate someone or do some other act of violence. I think it is perfectly OK to point out that we are all screwed when, in fact, we are all screwed.

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(*) Some mixing of metaphors make sense and I like this one.

Wayne B,: Its pretty obvious you read nothing of what I wrote, which is a shame, because I even went to the trouble of spell-checking and re-reading it for errors in the hopes of honestly engaging people.

Both of you: If you took nothing else from the reading, then look up the story of E.D. Nixon, Jo Ann Robinson and the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Change has always been right there waiting for people to show the courage to do something about it. And by the way, I'm not being a hypocrite--I did my part to the extent I was capable, and I've moved on to areas where I think my efforts are more intelligently put to use. Like getting a degree!

The views of the majority of Americans are held by parties like the Socialist, Peace & Freedom, Socialism/Liberation, Workers, and Communist parties. Nader's a capitalist, but he has the right idea. It's just that nobody is educated about voting in their own best interests and the MSM demonizes any position that is not pro-corporate fascist state.

It's hard to feel sorry for the people who voted for Obama. They had to have known what they were getting.

With the murder of the gay servicemember at Pendleton and the Obfuck administration turning a blind eye to it, we now know Obfuck is beholden not only to the corporatists but to the fundie Xtians as well. I can't believe we still have 3 1/2 years left of this hate-filled corrupt president.

Boy you can say that again. Almost everything I hear people say in 3-D life about history or politics is propaganda. I do not try to correct them, what good would it do? What good would it do to compare the foundation of our legal system(*) to the way we treat those we call suspected terrorists?

What good would it do to point out that almost everything you read in the papers or see on TV is the agenda of some group and not honest reporting; see Glenn's post above for one example.

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(*) due process, equality before the law, innocent till proven guilty, bail, and so on ...

I didn't say I WANTED to engage him; I generally don't. I said, at least he's honest about it, and that he genuinely often seems confused and tortured about his beliefs.

"Well, you got me. I don't understand you're reasoning.

"Finally, my point was that the electoral process is not going to be the way out of this. If you're voting for a third party hoping that they're going to take a new perspective, then the last thirty years of third party activity at the national level [not local, where there are successes] should really make you pause. If you're arguing that the end goal of voting was to resolve a moral question for you, then you've succeeded in resolving that moral question and I can only offer you my congratulations.

"However, my question was: HOW DO YOU CHANGE THINGS?"

-- omooex

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My reasoning was that you're still justifying a vote for a man who so far has turned out to be a fake. What's hard to get about that?

You also ask: "How do we change things?" The only way it's ever been possible: change people's minds. When it comes to the arena of politics, the people involved have already more completely made up their minds, so I agree with you that the electoral process has little chance of forestalling our slide into greater and greater fascism ... unless or until those who're voting have been better educated.

I'm not a politician or a lawyer. So, my answer is: live, love, and communicate honestly and with deep intelligence to all you meet (this includes voting, as a part of life). Do you have a better suggestion?