Now I hear tell it's true

The news new

From outta the blue

That George Dubya Bush is through!

Is this ACTUALLY so?

And then there after

From there

Where will things go?

h/T Raw Story

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hsG0My2Q3Eu9Sj2PSupnj4xeQXxAD95P24BO0

or click sig for linky (more there)

White House opposes court order in e-mail case

By PETE YOST – 22 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Bush administration is aggressively pushing back against a federal court order instructing the most important offices in the White House to preserve all of their e-mail.

In court papers late Friday, the administration argued that a federal court has no authority to impose such a requirement on the offices of President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and the National Security Council.

"Judge Crawford’s legal finding that torture occurred adds a new complication, since a treaty obliges the United States to investigate such allegations."

This "it's complicated" meme bears watching. For any news outlet that even covers the possibility that the US Government needs to follow the law--watch to see if there is spin that honoring the rule of law is just too complicated.

While in theory we would want to conform to law, it is just so complicated that it would confuse and muddle the country, nothing would get done, and that in turn we'd harm the country by going down such a trivial, vindictive and complicated road.

Thank you, Glenn. Now if everybody would please forward Glenn's rather concise statement of what's at stake and what the rules actually are to anyone who recently has told them that "Bush kept us safe since 9/11" or "there should be no prosecutions because 9/11 changed everything and our guys meant well", perhaps we could have a rational discussion in this country.

The significance of having an Attorney General of the United States saying what Eric Holder just said before the Senate, versus that craven enabling posture of Michael Mukasey in that position merits special recognition, too, but we'll get there I'm sure.

Rather than watch his presidency move toward the logical comparison to Lincoln, civil war, MOTUS will pardon the Bush admin if prosecutions are brought.

Search in your hearts. You know it's true.

Hey Glenn,

I was reading this last post and noticed that you brought up President Reagan. I thought that it was rather clever, throwing one of the patron saints out as standing against torture. I would like to think that the republican faithful are on their knees seeking forgiveness. But, then I remembered that that group are those that John Dean wrote of in his book Conservatives without conscience. And that they either ignore the inconvienent or rationalize it away. The Jack Bauer defense.

In any case I thought the posting well written.

footsore

So basically your saying it's okay to throw out the rule of law because a bunch of stupid hicks will throw a hissy fit? That's the best argument for ignoring anti-drug laws I've ever heard! It doesn't matter if the law is on the books folks, because all you have to do is cry and scream loud enough and you get to ignore them! The right wing says so themselves! Say, while we're at it, why don't we ignore that whole murder one too, or rape, how about we throw that out as well. I mean, according to the right wing, all we have to do is get enough people to march in the streets and the law no longer applies. Who needs pesky things like law and order, right? Mob rule is always the best way to go!

You've heard me say the same things without the specific treaty citations and without the claim that the treaty would obligate us to prosecute. And, while everybody seems to be focused on waterboarding, waterboarding is not the only vision of torture used by the US. Mr. Yoo's bullshit aside, I would define torture as any physical or psychological technique which inflicts pain and/or suffering on an individual which is used in an attempt to coerce testimony or information. Enforced stress positions (similar in some respects to the medieval rack), nudity coupled with hot and cold cycling, sleep deprivation, constant loud noises, and suspension from a ceiling (which has the same effect on the body as crucifixion, just without the cross) all qualify under my definition.

The irony here is that the US has refused to sign on to the International Criminal Court because we have a robust system of justice that makes an independent review of American military and/or government actions unnecessary. I've always thought that was a bullshit argument and, since I'm extremely skeptical that the incoming administration will investigate American torture, never mind the laundry list that Mr. Krugman proposed in his Friday column, I'm taking it that my opinion has been proven until and unless this new administration proves otherwise.

Actually, people who document the extraordinary rendition program put it's origins in the capture and indictment of General Manuel Noriega, indicted February 14, 1988, as the beginning. That wouldn't be Bill Clinton, but George Herbert Walker Bush.

The program changed radically 6 days after September 11th, after the AUMF. People who weren't in the game at the time it changed, like Michael Scheuer, can go on and on about how it was the same program but it wasn't. The original was based on PDD 39, which is documented in the 9/11 Commission Report,

The role of diplomacy was to gain the cooperation of other governments in bringing terrorists to justice. PDD 39 stated: "When terrorists wanted for violation of U.S. law are at large overseas, their return for prosecution should be a matter of the highest priority and shall be a continuing central issue in the bilateral relations with any state that harbors or assists them." If extradition procedures were unavailable or put aside, the United States could seek the local country's assistance in rendition, secretly putting the fugitive in a plane back to America or some third country for trial."

After the change, there was a secret program known as GST, which set up,

...one of the largest covert intelligence-gathering programs in this country's history, with an infrastructure that literally spans the globe. Among the GST initiative's clandestine programs include those allowing the CIA to seize terrorism suspects from foreign countries (sometimes with help from foreign intelligence agencies) and transport them to other countries for indefinite detention or interrogation; to create and oversee a web of secret prisons abroad; to use inhumane and immoral interrogation techniques that violate domestic and international law;..."

(source for both quotes B. Olshansky, Democracy Detained, ch.6).

So either you want to make all presidents that moved people without extraditions liable, and prosecute George and his father or you want to admit, once and for all, that there was a change in the program after September 11th, since there was. It "changed everything". Remember?