just listen only to her 'spanish' songs and you might be able to!

Rejali records water tortures (he divides them into 'pumping' and 'choking', waterboarding is one of the latter) by mostly Nazi client states and by the NVKD. Since the latter is part of the Allies, perhaps this is what you meant? Specifically, he ascribes most of the water torture to Christian Masuy with the Milice (Vichy France) and in Czechoslovakia, as well as the Soviet Union. Gestapo not so much, no mention of American use until Vietnam, except much earlier: In the Phillipines with the near tacit approval initially of President Teddy Roosevelt, in World War I against conscientious objectors, and in the 1920s by police. It was used by Japan in China (but not elsewhere until late in the war).

Don't know where you got your information, or your author, but I'd expect Rejali to know about it and put it in his compendium if it was as widespread as you claim.

Wow. That girl make me want to see Spanish.

steve confessed he is part cherokee and I am part Pauite and I have heard about some lost tribesmen who still believe in torture (performed on the White man) and perhaps steve is one

of this lost souls but brother (steve) lets put on the ghost shirt together and let's dance it away

just like Obama will do it in the whites man capital!

Thanks for the clarifications. I find that we are in substantial agreement on many issues; perhaps most.

Little Brother, I'll add a few thoughts myself.

I am not a fan of strong and powerful governments of any kind. They usually end up (always end up?) tyrannizing their own people. I am not positive that, in general, democracies are better than monarchies. I am not positive that our form of democracy (or republic for the pendants out there), is as good as Britain's form. I do not believe that the constitution was an improvement over the Articles of Confederation.

All that said, I live in a country that has a very strong, brutal central government. I live in a country that has a constitution. Since I do; I want to see it enforced to the letter. If it is wrong in any way, then amend the document in the way provided for in the constitution itself.

"Use it, or lose it" comes to mind for some reason.

I cheered the Democratic Parties victory two years ago and hoped that we would start trying to live by the constitution. I was disappointed.

I believe that every official should be bond by the constitution and be charged with treason when he breaks it. (hanging would be good)

I am continually charged here with "absolutism" as if that were a bad thing. It is always folks looking to avoid some first principle. For example, the thread where we yelled back and forth over "torturing a baby" if it would save many lives.

As always, I say no to any torture. You may never, ever harm another who is an innocent. In that, I am an "absolutist". I would not harm an innocent to save the human race. So how could I support torture? Even if it worked (it is only to get false confessions), the man I question is an innocent by our laws until he is proven guilty in a proper court of law. (due process and all that)

Note: The above thoughts worth every penny you paid for them.

I did say, "Obama may agree with us, now we have to "make 'him' do it", as your own FDR once said to a petitioner."

Thanks for the data on Holder's comments about torture, I missed those. It's true that those remarks are indicative of his thinking, and we can use them to push him in that direction. And unlike his predecessor, I don't see Obama as sociopathic and malign. My opinions on whether or not he will seek prosecutions are based in part on his statements about looking forward not back, or words to that effect. In his heart, Obama almost certainly must be repulsed by what Bush's men have done in "our" name. What he must balance now is the political cost of prosecuting, when those prosecuted may very well be high ranking members of his own party; which is a very high cost indeed.

If it's true that there is momentum in that direction, and I hope you are right, if so, the question becomes how do we motivate him to do the right thing?

it's a good sign that you don't have much of a case left.

Compared to what? Your false assertion that torture works and is good for the security of the citizens of the United States?

You're like a lot of reactionaries that come on and say "torture works!" and then merely repeat the assertion over and over and claim QED.

You still haven't given an answer to the scenario I put forth, i.e. my assertion that you would be perfectly happy if the Federal Government took you family in the middle of the night and interrogated them with what you call not-torture techniques, because the Government sincerely believes your family has information it wants and is merely using not-torture to protect the country.

like the "love" we felt for the people who 'deemed it necessary" after 911!

Joining the ranks with the rest of reactionaries who comment on hot air about grabbing Sarah Palin and their guns, going all helter skelter and marching on Washington, foot soldiers in the upcoming overthrow of the United States. They want to take our country back! Both of them.

I'm not a Clinton hater. I'm not a fan, either. I just thought he was okay.

I'm a fan of gridlock.

it's a secret message

and I for once seem to agree with the crazy chris - How did that happen?

"...Obviously. it appears as it if it's not the only thing you don't think about."

When you resort to insult, it's a good sign that you don't have much of a case left.

Someone asked me what I thought about Lakotah, and I answered that I really don't think about it much at all. How many people on this message board do?