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Sunday, Nov 8, 2009
Is Israel getting a rougher ride than the USA got (gets) over Iraq?
Possibly.
Perhaps even by Glenn. He never said that he was immune to tribal identifications and the biases they create. All he said was that he's noticed them.
But I will tell you that I've personally spent many hours on the net talking to Americans about the murderous perfidy of their government, and I usually get one of two very strong responses. The first is resigned and often deeply embarrassed agreement, the second is angry rejection of any evidence that leads in that direction, often associated with very intense hostility.
Also, all the same tortured logic about "we were attacked" (i.e. WE are the victims!), and how criticism equals Anti-Americanism, and the ever popular "WHY do you hate America?" ("WHY do you hate Jews?"), always figure in there somewhere.
I can also tell you that I have far greater hope that the government of Israel is amenable to moral suasion from the international community than I do that the US government is so amenable. Far from being anti-Semitic, this I consider a point in Israel's favour.
I see the US repeating all the mistakes of every empire before her, and I know where this is going. So does anyone with a knowledge of history. I have literally given up any hope that the pattern will not be repeated.
But I still have hope that Israelis and Palestinians can make peace. That is my only interest here. I am neither Jewish nor Palestinian nor American.
We can discuss what kind of evil person you think I am another time, when the horror is over and people aren't dying.
-- ondelette
Below are a few of the NYTs stories condemning the Marines involved in the Haditha case as murderers. You don't have to read them but there they are. I’m sure you know the cases against all but one have been dropped after the MSM, the UN, and leading democrats had found them all guilty. I’d be careful in your rush to judgment based on reports from inside Gaza, especially when under the banner of the NYT.
As far as your sanctimonious caterwauling over civilian deaths in Gaza, please direct me to any comments you have made bemoaning the loss of Jewish lives as a result of the indiscriminate lobbing of rockets into Israel.
A Hard Look at Haditha
Published: June 4, 2006
The apparent cold-blooded killing last November of 24 Iraqi civilians by United States marines at Haditha will be hard to dispose of with another Washington damage control operation. The Iraqi government has made clear that it will not sit still for one, and neither should the American people. This affair cannot simply be dismissed as the spontaneous cruelty of a few bad men.
January 7: "An American government report on the killing of 24 Iraqis, including several women and children, by marines in the village of Haditha in 2005 provides new details of how the shootings unfolded and supports allegations by prosecutors that a few marines illegally killed civilians, government officials said yesterday."
April 20: "After it became clear last year that several marines had killed 24 civilians in Haditha, Iraq, following an attack on their convoy of Humvees, the Marine Corps, which had initially played down the massacre, began an offensive of a different kind."
May 6: "Recently unclassified documents suggest that senior officers viewed the killings of 24 Iraqi civilians in Haditha in late 2005 as a potential public relations problem that could fuel insurgent propaganda against the American military, leading investigators to question whether the officers' immediate response had been intentionally misleading."
I'll reiterate what I said to WinSmith:
On your third point, what Hamas has been designated or not designated has no effect on Israel's obligations under IHL. Israel must follow all 4 of the Geneva Conventions it signed and ratified, and all the human rights covenants it signed and ratified. If Hamas fighters commit infractions of Geneva, those are war crimes too. But no human being is without protections under Geneva, those protections may vary, but no one is without them totally. And no one can designate an entire group to be without protections, the conventions require this to be done on a case by case basis. And the treatment of the sick and wounded, even wounded Hamas 'terrorists', is dictated by the First Geneva Convention. You have to let the designated parties collect them and get them medical aid, without exception.
It was a little disingenuous for PalestraJon not to cite you in his list of those talking about Nazis wasn't it? I addressed my "sanctimonious caterwauling" at WinSmith in particular, and some others, since (s)he has human feelings. You, on the other hand, are on record with "As far as the body count goes, who cares? 100:1, 1000:1, 10,000:1 it doesn't matter." So I don't expect anything remotely resembling an acknowledgment of the Geneva Conventions, or any other humanitarian principle from you. You're attitude is far too close to Arnald Amalric for my tastes.
You obviously don't give a shit about collateral damage.
You're attitude is far too close to Arnald Amalric for my tastes.
"Slay them all, God will know his own," must be amongst the most evil words said in any language at any time in human history. When I read those words I sometimes wish I were God. And if I were upon hearing them I would strike the whole of humanity mute, robbing them of the ability to use language at all until they had further evolved.
When I read those words I sometimes wish I were God. And if I were upon hearing them I would strike the whole of humanity mute, robbing them of the ability to use language at all until they had further evolved.
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Ah, but I fear that Satan anticipated this possibility, and created the teevee to preclude the prospect of further evolution.
I've met a few people like you. Once near Bethlehem at a roadblock a man in an IDF uniform with a Brooklyn accent stopped our car. He looked at my passport and told me I had only three weeks left to stay in Israel. You can't live here, he said with a smile. But I wasn't in Israel was I? Funny that.
My father was born in the West Bank village of Dura al Q'ra. The fact that any putz like you can show up in Israel, the West Bank or Gaza and claim some heritage of dispossession and live on Israeli welfare, displaced Palestinians and their families can only visit for three month periods at Israel's discretion endears you to Palestinians I'm sure.
But its not only Palestinians that have a particular distaste for dilettantes like you. Having been there, however, I know that there's one thing that both Palestinians and native Israelis agree on: they both hate sanctimonious American twits like you. I remember meeting someone doing their aliyah from Maryland who was living in Jerusalem, and he was constantly whining about how Israelis couldn't stand him. My heart went out to him, as you can imagine. As it does for you.
Much of the initial coverage about Fort Hood turned out to be wrong. Is there anything wrong with that?
The accountability imposed by another country for the CIA's kidnapping and torture reveals much about our own.
Fox News' morning show plays to type, talking about whether Muslims in the Army should face "special debriefings"
The survivor and author is upset about comparisons some on the right are making to genocide
Once seen as a lunatic fringe, reactionary anti-women groups are courting respectability
Salon headlines in your mailbox
