The criticism of me that Glenn Greenwald and yourself use, that I'm "Palling around with Neo-Cons," is exactly the type of smear by ad hominem we should expect from the right.

The Neo-Con war mongers love EVERY war. They are racists at their core, and view Islam as a religion that should be wiped off the map. There is literally no scenario in which they would advocate against bombing Arab or Muslim countries, and/or killing Arab or Muslim people.

None of that is relevant to if they support this specific event.

I read a Charles Krauthammer piece today that made me want to puke. He wants Israel to run Gaza's Palestinians into the sea. He is a sick bastard. He needs medical attention.

However Glenn wants to smear me because I allow an understanding that Israel can and must defend itself through a violent response to Gaza rocket attacks, and that Hamas is despicable enough to hide in civilian areas. To Glenn, this makes me a Neo-Con nut.

This is the very manichean binaries Glenn critiques on the right. The very us/them reductive simplicities that prevent any real understanding of the complex interplay in the middle east.

It's why when Glenn uses the Iraq invasion's complete bankrupt justifications to explain how his "critics" attack him, he's reducing everything to the us/them simplicities the right did when they needed to "win the argument." It's why Glenn has become the very cartoon us/them keyboard warrior he once critiqued.

If Saddam was the cartoon uber-villian of Neo-Con fantasy, behind any and all terrorist attacks, secretly funding Al Qaeda, then to Glenn Greenwald, Israel is that same cartoonish villian. For Glenn's inversion of Neo-Con paranoia, Israel is Saddam.

"Goldstein's Two Minutes of Hate," would work beautifully in here. Just pop up a picture of Ehud Barak.

All in one post. Two more claims of "Jew hating" "here".

Jew hating, under cover of "Israel criticism," is neither the province of liberals or conservatives. It is a productive narrative in all corners of the political spectrum, as we see here.

-- WinSmith

See how easy that was? I quoted your "Jew Hating" rhetoric directly. Why can't you do that instead of just making it up with no attribution?

It seems like almost every poster has a very strongly-held opinion, but takes pains to deny any personal prejudice - they're just "stating the facts."

It's hard to believe, since this conflict isn't really that important to the US. It has been going on for decades, and almost all the impacts on US were by our choice. This is FAR from the worst moral or physical tragedy in recent past (or current period), yet consistently excites the most passion and vitriol.

E.g. ZANU-PF is just as egregious a bully as IDF, and the victims there have the advantage (I think) of NOT lobbying crude rockets indiscriminately. Why so much less outrage and concern? The death toll is certainly higher.

When Russia slaughtered civilians like hogs in Grozny and elsewhere, I don't remember screed after screed about the inherent evil of Russians and the basic illegitimacy of their colonization of the Caucasus, etc. How come?

As for me, I don't see why my tax dollars support this shit. Israel is a pretty crappy ally. Then again, I don't cry too many tears for folks who danced in the streets and handed out candy on 9-11. They can both eat a dick, but who cares?

Anyone who takes too strong a position supporting either group makes it very difficult for me to see them as open-minded or objective.

What did I lie about?

I'm the only one here willing to wait for more facts to come in on exactly what's happened in Gaza the past week.

Amazingly, the rest of you already know Israel's committed war crimes. Even without any journalists there.

But seriously Jebster, since you're one of the noble heroes who cares so deeply for the plight of the poor, innocent Palestinian children and I'm the big boogeyman spreading pro-fascist propaganda, tell me... what did I lie about?

-- WinSmith

You have repeatedly lied about posting cites of anti-semitism here. You've not posted one single cite. I looked at your history also, and there's nothing there.

There are journalists in Gaza and they have been reporting, with video, what's been going on. There are also reports from the IRC which tend to support what those journalists have been reporting.

It doesn't take an Einstein to understand that the purposeful and deliberate targeting of civilians is a war crime. Israel has by, her own admission, done this.

What else do you have on your mind?

The very us/them reductive simplicities that prevent any real understanding of the complex interplay in the middle east.

I agree. Here's an example of a "reductive simplicity:"

There's a reason Orwell had 1984's "Two Minutes of Hate" directed at the evil capitalist "Goldstein." "Goldstein's Two Minutes of Hate," would work beautifully in here. Just pop up a picture of Ehud Barak.

See what I did there?

(Also: "evil capitalist?" You didn't even read Nineteen Eighty-four, did you?)

I'm sure it's there among the 50 pages of posts denying the Lobby and the effectiveness of Israel's PR machine in the US, while at the same time blaming it all on "worldwide antisemitism" and "thousand year" conspiracies (probably perpetrated by those evil Catholics and Christians he rails against). According to WinSmith, AIPAC is merely a code word used by Jew Haters to hate Jews because they simply Hate Jews because they are Jewish. Don't conflate Zionist Jews with Neoconservatives he says, they have nothing to do with each other, except that they have everything to do with each other.

And just who are these antisemites that hide under WinSmith's bed? Christians, Muslims, self-hating Jews, the Vatican, little Hitlers and closet Nazis? Probably. WinSmith can't be bothered with the details, suffice to say they are there, hiding under his bed, waiting for the boxcars to carry WinSmith away.

Thank you for your direct and detailed response; for what it's worth I'm in agreement with everything in your first paragraph. Addressing your second paragraph:

PalestraJon: "As long as there is war, with a country surrounded by 500 million Arabs and another 300 million other Muslims currently united in their hatred for Israel, the only response to what Hamas did is all out war. Again, note that Hezbollah might have cried out in victory in 2006, but they have no stomach for a second round. Deterrence is the only strategy---a war of attrition is guaranteed to be an Israeli loss."

Details are conflicting and are still coming to light and as to "what Hamas did" with respect to engendering this latest round of horror. One account, here:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3667

indicates that what happened is far from only Hamas' fault. (h/t omooex)

Which isn't surprising to anyone who follows the history of the conflict with any degree of objectivity - the reality is that the closer one looks at that history the more complex it becomes. To that end, again that history as you've presented here is grossly simplistic, one-sided and misleading. Which also isn't surprising - most media accounts in the West are one-sided and misleading, and the only way to get at a more complete picture of the history is to do some serious homework on the subject.

You seem like a smart guy though, and not a true-believer type with respect to the conlfict. As such I recommend these two books for you to read - both are written by prominent Israeli historians, and both provide a far more balanced history of the conflict than the one you have presented here: "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist Arab Conflict, 1881-2001" by Benny Morris, and the aforementioned "One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs under the British Mandate" by Tom Segev. These two books don't give a complete picture of the history of the conflict, but they present a far more complete picture than the one you presented here. And I guarantee that after you've read them you'll look back at the "history" as you've presented it here and cringe because you'll then it for what it is: again grossly one-sided oversimplification.

And by the way with respect to Hezbollah: I believe they got what they wanted out of the 2006 war - a much stronger hold on the Lebanese government.

PalestraJon: "So let's not support the starting of wars---by anyone. Let's figure out a way out of this---they were so close in 2000."

Again one thing we actually can do to move towards peace is to stop Israeli settlement expansion - all that has to happen there is for the U.S. has to do is make its "aid" to Israel conditional on it.