I noticed that too, but I think Glenn was smart not to get dragged into the "their extremists are worse than our extremists" thing. However, I would add Ariel Sharon, who resigned as Defense Minister following the invasion of Lebanon in the eighties to avoid being charged with war crimes.

But in reality, any Israeli leader who supports inserting Israeli populations into the territories and maintaining martial law in Jerusalem, the WB and blockading Gaza is an extremist in my eyes. As bad (or worse when you consider the means at their disposal) than Hamas.

You write:

"The reason I refrain from advocating the doctrine of pacifism -- that there is no such thing as a just war -- isn't because I'm bending over backwards to strike a serious or reasonable posture.

It's because I don't believe in that doctrine. I disagree with you that there's no such thing as a just war. Did that possibility really not occur to you?"

***

Dear Glenn: I'm not sure you appreciated the fact that I clad the word "necessary" in my prior comment (much as you might see in this sentence) in quotation marks.

Has it never occurred to you that there may be unjust wars that, nevertheless, must be prosecuted...at least according to the prosecuting party?

More importantly, you have mistaken my profound distaste for war with pacifism. But don't worry; it's a common mistake.

There may exist "just wars." There may even be "necessary wars" on this vast planet of ours.

I respectfully request examples of such wars to be posted on this thread.

Thank you.

I have thought that Electro et. al. might live down in the Charlotte N.C. area. I seem to remember him mentioning how he/she lives among a bunch of rednecks.

I would like to meet him/her some day (although not as much as I'd like to meet many of the fine posters in Salon). Maybe what I'd like is to know this person was ElectroRobot & then observe them to see if they functioned in society any better than they function here.

The Haitian Revolution. That's just for starters.

But wait, there's more! Marcy's next post ferrets out a little nugget showing that they will have evidence of eavesdropping during the critical period after Comey refused to certify the program and Bush proceeded with only Gonzales' signature as counsel (before he was AG). This could put Bush himself in jail. Link at my name.

One thing I heard reported today (this morning on Amy Goodman)that I had not heard before. Various places in Gaza, designated as spots where people could congregate for shelter (schools, etc.) were GPS'd and locational coordinates sent to the Israeli govt. They were also marked in some way, also for purposes of identification. This was so it would be clearly understood where civilians might be located for refuge. For example, in response to Israeli leaflets telling people to stay away from places that might be military targets--that sort of thing.

Whether any of these places hit by bombs, rockets, or tank rounds were refugia or not isn't knowable at present, I suppose.

I think he is just naive and parroting nonsense he has picked up elsewhere.

And IMO that is the creepy part. Some of the members of the troll army might be programmed for this kind of reflexive game playing and not even know it. Like when I look at the Megaphone Alerts and GIYUS.org, everything is spelled out: what to say, what is right or wrong about the article in question, what talking points to use, with one button press it can add the email addresses of appropriate people or automatically vote pro-Israel in a poll, there is ZERO critical thought involved in using the tool and spreading the propaganda. ZERO. Rehash the talking points, press the button. It is no surprise that there is such a unified voice with the same "arguments" over and over. It isn't about thinking for yourself and coming up with such things as "what would you do?", it is all about amplifying the message.

Conditioning + propaganda = powerful.

I have to disagree with you on this, Glenn.

There are no just and necessary wars. The biggist victims in all wars are women, children and old men.

War solves nothing because violence begets violence.

The world has become too small a place to allow warfare to continue as an option. It must be denounced in all forms, regardless of the motives or participants.

We must begin the long and difficult process of squelching the warrior impulse along with the romaticism and glorification of warfare.

We must begin by admitting that there are no just and necessary wars.

You know, reading all the articles and commentary over the last few days, two things stand out:

1) Everybody seems to think that they have a vote on the perfect solution. Frankly, I don't think anybody in the Middle East really cares what someone in the Mid West thinks about how a two-state or one-state solution should be crafted. All they care about is whether or not Uncle Sam will keep on (or stop) writing the cheques and exercising its US veto.

This also ties into the notion of the US being a mediator-- it never has been, and can't be. Why it must be at the table is not as a fair-minded neutral facilitator, but as a freaking participant-- at the end of the day, if it starts looking like Uncle Sam might be putting away the chequebook, certain people's attitudes might just change quite a bit, pretty damn quickly.

2) There has been very little attempt to actually understand Hamas' thinking, strategy, motivations, and future plans. They get written off as being terrorists, everybody has to make the ritual bow that they are despicable (which they are, my ritual bow made too), and so on. But whatever else they are, they are not any more or less stupid than any other collection of people. In fact, given the run of success they have been having by their own lights, they are actually perhaps somewhat less stupid than most.

Before you decide whether violence or concession or whatever is going to be effective, it behooves you to understand what it is your opponent is trying to do, why they are behaving the way they are.

But that raises too many uncomfortable questions, I suppose, especially for our Zionist friends. So much easier just to write them off as maniacs, subhumans, and fanatics-- who can (or should) understand people like that?