Radicals have always derided the center as wishy washy and so on, you're by no means the first to call me (us) that. I have hard left friends and hard right friends and I frustrate all of them by trying to see all sides of an issue.

You still are avoiding the question I asked in sincerity: does Israel have any right or reason to continue to exist, and if so how should they go about it?

You do make an interesting point, in that you claim to 'not care' about either side here, only in how it affects America. That's a pretty Kissingerian realpolitik way to go but let's go there. You claim our support for Israel endangers us (I actually agree to a point, I also believe it helps us, as usual it's complicated). Are you now suggesting it doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong, let's just cut off aid to Israel and let them do whatever they want with Gaza? Or are you suggesting we switch sides and stay involved but just for the other team?

I'm honestly inquiring, but fine with continued avoidance and personal attacks. I'll keep going until I'm bored (as will we all...we're just clacking away on a blog here)

But the expirement is still relevant from the point of view of morality and historical claims.

It's not. It's a ridiculous exercise to try and feel good about sending millions of dollars to a country that has no respect for, and whose actions endanger the security of, the people of the United States.

Do you consider it a fallacy to claim that AIPAC and the rest of the Israel-Firsters have contempt for the people of the United States?

i mean that it's possible to view it through the lens of both sides being wrong, each to varying degrees, israel more so.

You typed:

But the expirement is still relevant from the point of view of morality and historical claims.

It's not. It's a ridiculous exercise to try and feel good about sending millions of dollars to a country that has no respect for, and whose actions endanger the security of, the people of the United States.

Do you consider it a fallacy to claim that AIPAC and the rest of the Israel-Firsters have contempt for the people of the United States?

Again, you're taking the argument in an interesting direction here: you come from the stance that the issue should be viewed only in how it affects US interests and security. Fine, an honest opinion. So there's no right an wrong from your point of view? You could care less if Israel is wiped out, or if Palestine is, as long as the US is not involved?

You do make an interesting point, in that you claim to 'not care' about either side here, only in how it affects America. That's a pretty Kissingerian realpolitik way to go but let's go there.

Kissinger is a war criminal interventionist. I'm not. To me, caring about America doesn't mean intervening in every pissant country in the world on behalf of big business.

You claim our support for Israel endangers us (I actually agree to a point, I also believe it helps us, as usual it's complicated).

Of course. Everything is complicated.... except that it isn't.

Are you now suggesting it doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong, let's just cut off aid to Israel and let them do whatever they want with Gaza? Or are you suggesting we switch sides and stay involved but just for the other team?

It doesn't matter. Who cares? Let them solve their own problems with their own money. And that goes for all the other backwards countries we prop up all over the world. If we didn't prop up these countries then we wouldn't be getting blamed for it, OBL wouldn't be able to us it against us, and nobody would care about other countries religious wars.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but we, the US, are insolvent and following an intellectually and morally bankrupt, multi-trillion dollar policy of foreign intervention while our states can't even pay their employees.

You don't really remind me of a centrist though, just someone that is too intellectually insecure to take a stand on an issue for fear of either being wrong or upsetting someone. It's nothing unique or intellectually interesting.

So there's no right an wrong from your point of view?

Yes, but who is the US to judge what is right in wrong with regards to other country's affairs? Is it the right and role of the US to judge the right and wrongness of everything on Earth? If not, then why is Israel so different?

You could care less if Israel is wiped out, or if Palestine is, as long as the US is not involved?

Yes, I don't care. Would you care if Saudi Arabia or Jordan or Bolivia or Argentina were wiped out? Is that the role of United States? To defend the borders of every country on Earth? Would you care if Saudi Arabia or Iran or Bolivia or Argentina were wiped out? Is it our job to prevent all border disputes for all time? Yeah, sure it is...

Wow, you're really fitting the stereotype here...calm down

You do make an interesting point, in that you claim to 'not care' about either side here, only in how it affects America. That's a pretty Kissingerian realpolitik way to go but let's go there.

Kissinger is a war criminal interventionist. I'm not. To me, caring about America doesn't mean intervening in every pissant country in the world on behalf of big business.

---I tend to agree

You claim our support for Israel endangers us (I actually agree to a point, I also believe it helps us, as usual it's complicated).

Of course.

Everything is complicated.... except that it isn't.

---Nice argument. Who's rubber and who's glue, I forget?

Are you now suggesting it doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong, let's just cut off aid to Israel and let them do whatever they want with Gaza? Or are you suggesting we switch sides and stay involved but just for the other team?

It doesn't matter. Who cares? Let them solve their own problems with their own money. And that goes for all the other backwards countries we prop up all over the world. If we didn't prop up these countries then we wouldn't be getting blamed for it, OBL wouldn't be able to us it against us, and nobody would care about other countries religious wars.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but we, the US, are insolvent and following an intellectually and morally bankrupt, multi-trillion dollar policy of foreign intervention while our states can't even pay their employees.

---I'm sensing some Paulism here...libertarian?

You don't really remind me of a centrist though, just someone that is too intellectually insecure to take a stand on an issue for fear of either being wrong or upsetting someone. It's nothing unique or intellectually interesting.

--- Really, what does remind you of a centrist? I'm guessing you divide people into 3 groups: fellow libertarians, radical statist adversaries, and dumb sheep who don't have brains to be with you or against you. Pretty childish outlook.

I have taken many stands on this issue alone, they just bother you too much to address them or answer them. You have however made your point: you could care less about Israel or Palestine, just get the US the heck out of there (and everywhere it sounds like). Fair enough.

By the way I think the US is far too interventionist worldwide...but that doesn't mean we can't have allies. And I think a better behaved Israel would be a good ally.

Opinionated enough for you?