re: the crips analogy..

where did the crack come from?

I liked your comment and felt your points were well made. One teeny quibble: it's "Just like a Willys in four-wheel drive"

A "Willys" is a Jeep made by Kaiser Motors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willys_MB

After all, it is up to us to maintain the purity and inerrancy of the sacred writings.

Don't take it personally, Holly.

Mooser has given us all the Willys at one time or another.

nothing is sacred ;)

Either you are uninformed or are deliberately being disingenuous. Yes, Israeli Arabs and other non-Jewish citizens have the right to vote in Israel. As a matter of fact, twelve Israeli Arabs currently hold positions in the Knesset, including the current and former deputy Speakers and one Minister.

We can certainly have a reasonable discussion about the extent to which non-Jewish Israelis' rights are implemented and the percentage of representation vis-a-vis the percentage of population: those are legitimate, and laudable, questions in any multi-ethnic democracy. Certainly the United States has a long way to go before achieving true equality and parity, regardless of the great strides we have made in almost two and a half centuries. Israel has been around about a quarter of that time, and has a lot of catching up to do.

Palestinians in the Territories do not vote in Israel; they vote in Palestine. The election in which Gazans elected Hamas as their leaders was certified by impartial international observers as fair and democratic. We in the West may feel that Palestinians in the Territories ought to vote in Israel, but it seems quite clear they would rather have their own state.

One question: has anyone in the Palestinian leadership floated the idea that Israeli "settlers" become fully-recognized citizens of a free and sovereign Palestine which includes their homes within its borders? This would seem to be a reasonable, fair, and completely unrealistic solution given events on the ground. I haven't even heard it discussed, much taken seriously. I find that telling.

A big difference. I mainly react to the personal shame when I hear Jews talking this way. It's shameful. You could believe every bad thing ever said about Jews just by listening to Zionists. And they are not even real Zionists, to top it off!

So I know I'm not much good. I'm just overcome with rage and shame, which makes me inarticulate.

But there is a big difference now. Every time a wanna-be Zionist post the usual distortions and canards, there was somebody, often people new to me, quickly come to say the truth. And the whole idea of Israel as a heroic enterprise is just about gone. How quickly any comment which tries to put a heroic or noble cast on the Zionist enterprise gets shot down!

Things are different. But one thing will never change. If the Middle East becomes more peaceful, it will be in spite of Israeli efforts.

Arne: try There Were Roses, sung by Kathy Mattea on John Whelan, Celtic Crossroads. Made me cry.

http://www.amazon.com/Celtic-Crossroads-Whelan-Kathy-Mattea/dp/B000005P02/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1231135669&sr=8-3

$1.99!

For all: instead of Miss Manners try Miss Lonelyhearts by Nathanael West

And Derbig: That's "Jump like a Willys in four-wheel-drive"

from Sugar Magnolia, lyrics by Robert Weir

Your description of how Israel functions as a "multi-ethnic democracy is completely disingenuous. It is in fact, a lie.

And there is no comparison between the citizens of America and the denizens of Israel. There is no basic standard of human rights in Israel. Each denizen is given only as much rights as the government allows them.

That is a completely different from America.

So we're back to the "Israel is not as bad as the worst"?

You may submit it, but I'm not buying it. I do not find Glenn's writing to be shrill, nor is it an appeal to emotionality (I would say that about your writing, however). In fact, I'd say his writing is an appeal to rationality/reason. It makes me quite suspicious of you that you make the claims you do.

I've read probably 100±posts by Omooex, and I don't recall a single one where he/she said anything about knocking your teeth out. Perhaps it happened once and I didn't see it. Anyway, your credibility is getting rather low.

--Ron

Zenwick says: "May I submit that Glenn's shrillness and appeal to emotionality, which are evident in all of his writings, are a proximate cause of the intemperance obscuring a helpful discussion here. When a poster like omooex feels the need to inform me each time I say anything with which he disagrees that he would like to knock my teeth out, it diminishes the value of what we are doing here.

Yup, that's right. Jump around.

We can certainly have a reasonable discussion about the extent to which non-Jewish Israelis' rights are implemented and the percentage of representation vis-a-vis the percentage of population: those are legitimate, and laudable, questions in any multi-ethnic democracy. Certainly the United States has a long way to go before achieving true equality and parity, regardless of the great strides we have made in almost two and a half centuries. Israel has been around about a quarter of that time, and has a lot of catching up to do.

Palestinians in the Territories do not vote in Israel; they vote in Palestine. The election in which Gazans elected Hamas as their leaders was certified by impartial international observers as fair and democratic. We in the West may feel that Palestinians in the Territories ought to vote in Israel, but it seems quite clear they would rather have their own state.

Thank you for disabusing me of my preconceptions; also, this is just the sort of discussion that needs to be taking place.

Once everyone puts down their weapons.

I understand that it is easier for Israelis to call a cease-fire, and nearly impossible to control the herd of cats that is the various factions of those who live in, for the sake of argument, what we will call "the occupied territories".

The reason I advocate the (pipe dream) single-state solution is because it is the solution that requires Israelis to deal with Palestinians not only as equals but as perhaps a plural majority whose goals and needs have been not represented by the "Palestinian state" (for a myriad of reasons).

I would rather Israelis spend their energies winning over the trust and votes of Palestinians than the trust and votes of Americans through their various lobbying arms, first among them AIPAC.

Why not try to win friends with your neighbors instead of winning friends with your tough American bodyguards?

Why is Israel not reaching out to their neighbors and cohabitants the same way they reach out to Egyptians, Jordinians, Americans? And why has Israel not realized the futility of this sort of escalation?

There are a lot of things I am ashamed of when it comes to American foreign policy; I know there are Israelis who feel the same way about Israeli foreign policy.

I feel that temperance and common sense are tragically underrepresented in both.