I'm sorry, I have a more nuanced view of Palestine and Israel than you. When you ask if there was ever a Palestinian leader that did anything to promote the economic development of Palestine I can't give you a yes or no answer. Palestine was occupied until 1992. Israel controlled every aspect of its economy until then. During the Oslo years, Palestine received some measure of autonomy, but Israel still controlled trade policies, shipment routes, customs, taxation--almost every aspect of Palestinian international trade.

If you are asking whether Palestinians took good enough advantage of the seven years with which they had to run an internal economy cut up by Israeli only highways, checkpoints, and a patchwork of varying autonomous zones--most completely controlled by Israel--the answer is no. In fact, Yasser Arafat was a horribly corrupt administrator. However, even acknowledging how badly the PNA has always been administered, the Palestinian Authority under Arafat still managed to provide Palestinians with a rudiment of a social and economic infrastructure that they had not known in Israel’s previous three decades of occupation.

Under the Palestinian Authority, Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and even Palestinian Jerusalem (over which the government of Israel claims sovereignty but does not provide adequate social services), for the first time had state sponsored health services, a vaccination program, Palestinian schools using an Arab curriculum, a civilian police force for the protection and not the policing of the Palestinian population, parking and traffic enforcement, a central bureau of statistics, a ministry of health charged with the prevention and control of disease and many of the other characteristics of self-government– including labor laws, social security, building permits, training programs.

This is not, unfortunately, a credit to the Palestinian Authority which was indeed undermined by institutionalized corruption and mismanagement, but a significant critique of the social and economic impact of the Israeli occupation on the people of the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem. As bad as things were under Arafat, as unwisely managed, they were never as bad as they were when Israelis completely managed every affair of the territories.

So after days of passive aggressive racism and cowering, do not present yourself now as a humble seeker of truth out to debate the facts with those too strident to accept your opinion. Trust me, I've had these conversations with Israelis, Jews, Palestinians, and every other nationality--peopel who know what they're talking about and want to learn more, who want to debate. Its painfully obvious, you don't have any idea of the recent history, or any history, for that matter. The facts are easy to find for those who want to spend the time, and you seem to have plenty on your hands. But for some reason, you don't see the need. You'rr a coward, a fool, a dilettante. God knows why you're doing this in the first place.

Oh, these trolls, with their accusations of moral relativism. What? When this particular essay is nothing if not a critique of cultural relativism?

Talk about willfully misreading the text.

But we did what was RIGHT, not what was practical, and we just elected the first African American to the President of the United States.

When I said "we did what was RIGHT, not what was practical," I meant we ended segregation and focused our efforts on assimilation, and as a result of our efforts we we just elected the first African American to the President of the United States.

You guys are just following the wrong narrative. The Israelis are nice little Hobbits. The Palestinians are Orcs. Hamas is the Uruk Hai. Iran is Saruman. Osama is Sauron. The IDF is Aragorn. Alan Dershowitz is Gandalf. Glenn Greenwald is Gollum.

We are all Muggles, and zwenick is Harry Potter.

Once you understand that, everything else becomes clear, and you can sleep peacefully at night.

You may wish to follow the link to Fisk's whole text. However, in context, the reality is that this is showing all signs of being a 'quick war', by design, even if there were cameras broadcasting the effects on the ground.

Israel is sending the Palestinians a very simple and very painful message. It is, stop those who will never make peace with Israel, or suffer the consequences.

Those individuals, Hamas, cannot remain in Gaza doing their usual thing. They have to be forced out of the area by the Palestinians who desire peace. It is no longer possible to not be involved and continue to survive in Gaza. The terrorists have to be rejected by their own people. Their actions bring death and destruction to the innocents.

When Hamas is gone peace will be possible. If the legacy of hate continues, there can never be peace.

Ah, Jebbie. You were one of the few here yesterday who seemed like a worthy debater. Too bad.

-- zenwick

All the more reason to listen to what I have said.

Your arguments are shit. They've been shit all along and I was polite, posted verifiable points which refuted your's one-by-one and you utterly failed to acknowledge anything I (or anyone else) said because it didn't meet your preconceived notions of The Truth.

Nothing.

Nada.

Yet, I still read your stuff hopeing against hope that you will at least acknowledge that even a smidgen of what is being said is worthwhile, but you haven't.

You've been provided with fact after fact after fact and you ignore everything and keep pounding away, perhaps flailing away is more descriptive, and when you get boxed, you start whining about how badly you've been treated.

You claim omooex threatened you. Yet, when folks failed to acknowledge the bullshit proof you posted you continued to attempt to denegrate omooex and then had the chutzpah to complain how he and others were mistreating you.

You posted what you believed to be proof and yet, all omooex did was state that if someone were to say they wanted to bomb his family or friends and said it in person, he would knock their teeth out. You took that as a personal threat? Come on, now. That's bullshit and you know it. omooex is correct. If someone came up to me, or you, and said their friends and relatives were nothing but meat for the Israeli grinder, I (and you) would pound their ass into salt if we could. To do otherwise would demonstrate a complete and total lack of humanity. Do you believe omooex or anyone else with his connections to the Palestinians should just read the shit you're peddling and not respond in kind?

You've denegrated just about everyone here whom you've had contact with on this issue, now including me. Oh, you're slick about it and you use flowery words (some would call them weasel words) but it's the same thing.

Well, I'm not a flowery kind of guy. You had your chance and you blew it.

Oh!, just in case he's lurking, fuck you too, WinSmith.

Heh