There was our good friend, staunchest/strongest ally, and beacon of democracy spreading, Israel.

Sounds nice, but most pertinently, that idea is not mainstream.

Sorry? Not clear here.

I am aware of Shock Doctrine style arguments and media as corporate or government propagandist arguments. I was specifically trying to avoid those here. For instance, there is no public intimidation reason for not covering admissions that the NSC principals oversaw tortures from the Situation Room. There may be a propaganda argument - that it disrupts the clean and patriotic image of the war on terror or something - and there may be a corporate argument - such stories dampen viewership (except that the issue on that one was the NYT) or make people less likely to spend money, or make them vote for candidates that impose regulations on corporations.

But there seems an argument beyond that, and I think it may have non-nefarious roots - many journalists have personal ties to September 11th victims or were there covering it and feel revenge or fear motives more strongly than the public - and nefarious ones - The NYTimes sometimes is reluctant to talk about things that could lead back to discussions of Israeli misconduct on some subjects, for instance, or they knew and said nothing as evidence of torture mounted, especially before the 2004 elections, when the public could have ended this regime. I also think a lot of columnists are on public record as having dismissed claims that something was brutally wrong, and don't want the scrutiny on their past failures.

Some of my musings were because I was essentially live-blogging on the Taylor v. Ratner debate, I had it going on in the background. Stuart Taylor has an amazing viewpoint, really, to the point of ending up talking about justifiable war crimes, damning the process of trial by jury, all sorts of very strange views, nitpicking waterboarding technique vis-à-vis the Inquisition (he got it wrong) and so forth. He came by these views over the years, which includes over the past 7 years. He has a lot of policy people whispering in his ear as a journalist, he has a lot of affinity for classification and intelligence gathering as a modern journalist, and he has an inordinate amount of fear compared to many. And he basically had a hard time defending himself except by recourse to emotional arguing tactics - doomsday scenarios and the like.

Along with the investigation being called for by Horton and Ratner and others, there ought to be an investigation of 2004 and what the press knew before the election and when, from, say, January until November, plus a re-examination of all the information that came out obscurely or was shunted by the press (in other words, questioning decisions to print a story but to make certain it got a small audience). My guess is the press is hiding knowledge that could have changed whether or not torture happened in some cases, and knows how devastating that would be if made public.

I have a link here (and wouldn't Derbig be astonished?) that, of course, you're free to reject if you choose:

http://mediamatters.org/progmaj/report

Indeed.

The history of the intertwining of America and Israel comes in the same period that America adopted the most brutal, murdering, deceitful methods of dealing with others in the world. Can this just be coincidence?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/22/AR2008112200910_pf.html

Noticeably missing: Wesley Clark, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

Noticeably worrisome: Colin Powell, John Brennan, Linda Chavez

BTW, John Brennan has suffered a "leak demotion" to CIA chief.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/22/obama-considering-commiss_n_145729.html or click sig

"Despite the hopes of many human-rights advocates, the new Obama Justice Department is not likely to launch major new criminal probes of harsh interrogations and other alleged abuses by the Bush administration," Newsweek's Michael Isikoff reports. "But one idea that has currency among some top Obama advisers is setting up a 9/11-style commission that would investigate counterterrorism policies and make public as many details as possible."

Send it to committee! Bury it just like the 9-11 evidence! That is the ticket.

Fuck all that hard work of using the court system to get justice for the millions of victims of the Re-thugs. Just too damn hard, eh?

from the Nation linky (italics mine)

There's tons of things the left is right about that aren't even close to mainstream (taking a hatchet to the national security state and ending the prison industrial complex to name just two), but hopefully we're moving there.

My comment about your comment about the P-I-complex should've used snark tags, I guess.

So, no, I do not reject the media matters thesis.

I'm becoming more "leftist" (anarchist?) by the minute. And in true Broderian fashion, I'm sure the majority of real true Americans feel just as I do.

BTW, that is one helluva linky

http://mediamatters.org/progmaj/report

I saved it. Everybody should read it.

Effectively destroys all that "center right" b.s.

I figured you'd be familiar with the arguments. Obviously, they're very powerful, as you acknowledge. I think your analysis deals with why it's these specific people making these specific arguments, beyond describing the social framework that makes these general types of things happen.

I wrote about it here:http://www.theartofthepossible.net/2008/11/18/torture-in-the-usyes-it-is-an-industry-here-too/ (or click my name)

There is a link at my post to an outstanding BBC documentary on torture in U.S. prisons.

This did not start with Abu Ghraib or Gitmo. But few -- certainly in the infonewstainment media -- care to delve into the sordid subject.

My comment about your comment about the P-I-complex should've used snark tags, I guess.

My error. I'm still recovering from mr snoid's comment about having nothing worthwhile to say.

I'm stalwart and working hard to be relevant (although I believe GoodCelery! thinks me so).

Anyone who has any significant exposure to the American prison system knows this is true, and thus should know that Abu Ghraib was not an aberration ...

Do I remember right that the US imported to Iraq prison guards? I seem to recall that they did so.