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• Sunday, October 5, 2008 08:02 PM

  @ ondelette & Kitt

  @ Kitt first: It was Glenn who said that we shouldn't coddle people who are of the age of consent. I think he mentioned that these women are adults but men too can be sexually exploited and perhaps -- following Glenn's reasoning -- they should not be coddled either. Not sure he actually used the word coddle -- but something like that. I am glad that you agree with me that age of consent is completely arbitrary and has nothing to do with right or wrong, without some compelling supporting reason.

  Do I have you right there?

  Actually, our minds think alike. I posted what I said because I was not going to let you make it all about porn exploitation.

  You just chose the word "exploitation." I didn't.

  Now that we have that out of the way, I mentioned the young prisoners in case you wanted a conversation about age based criteria. And I mentioned the female prisoners about Bagram in case it had to be all about women to be worth caring.

  Actually, I am old-fashioned. I always prefer discussion about right and wrong. However, we cannot ignore the fact that whether or not torture is legal it is not just a matter of laws -- they can be quite arbitrarily chosen, as Bush has demonstrated -- or they can based upon things like harm to others, the few or the many. I say the many because I believe that harm can extend beyond those who are the immediate receivers of bad behavior. For instance, our nation has been harmed by a culture of torture.

  Harm matters. It is the individual who suffers torture but much harm is done beyond that, wouldn't you agree? Or to you want to contend that the idea of harm and the proscription or freedom of actions should only be confined to acts against individuals?

  I can answer your question about consent. I side with Glenn, that what matters is the law. If you want a different law, try to get one passed. The law says 18 (depending on which law you are asking about) and that means 18.

  Then you are you agreeing with me that the sexual exploitation or the torture of a person -- the evil thereof -- is not totally dependant upon age? Yes, it is dreadful when 16 year olds are sexually exploited, but also dreadful when 18 year olds are sexually exploited. Yes, it dreadful when 16 year olds are tortured, but also when 18 year olds are tortured.

  Has it not occured to you that abuse, sexual exploitation and torture all could come from the same evil root?

  Yes, I am old-fashioned. I use words like evil.

  I'm making it all about torture? And it's wrong, given the comparison? Why don't you answer the question of why the torture matters so much less than the porn?

  I didn't say that it did. You merely made an assumption about me. I feel both are worthy or discussion and since Glenn compared them, then I am on topic.

  This country has roughly a quarter to a third of the FBI working on internet porn.

  Those resources fight child porn as well -- does that matter?

  How many Torture Victims Protection Act trials or investigations you seen lately?

  I hope you aren't trying to suggest that I would oppose these -- because that would be both a strawman attack and a smear.

  In his book, Inside the Wire, Erik Saar details at length a female interrogator who strips to her underwear, lap dances on a male prisoner, and wipes fake menstrual blood across his face. Now that you know that there were female prisoners at Bagram, and possibly female high-level detainees at black sites, and given that you know that nudity and exploitation of sexual fears were authorized from the top, and given that you know that when the sexes were the other way around it was inappropriate touching, groping, body contact, do you care about porn or rape?

  What difference does it make about the sexes being turned around. I am not sure what you are getting at here. Either way would be assault -- probably from the same root as that defect in character that would make a viewer enjoy watching simulated rapes of 12 year olds.

  In Africa recently, the biggest (casualty-wise) single war since World War II occurred, in which women had hot coals placed in their recta so they would burn through and create fistulae. Nobody cared, nobody stopped it, nobody even really knew about it.

  Probably because this sort of thing -- dreadful though it is -- is hardly new. Ever read Susan Brownmiller's Against Our Will. There is a chapter there about torture and war.

  Ever read Alice Miller?

  But you chase me away for "making it all about torture". Okay, I'll go, go back to discussing the porn guy. Nobody talks about sex and porn as much as torture.

  You tried to chase me away first. What makes you think that exploitative (your word!) porn and torture are not related?

  What makes you think the idea that one nation should rule over another is not related to the idea that white should rule over black, that men should rule over women, that adults should rule over children, that the rich should exploit the poor are not ALL -- everyone of them -- related?

  (Ah yes, I feed you a bit of straw here, just as you tried to feed me some of yours.)

  The poor suffer and have fewer choices. The victor crows and exacts tribute, sometimes in the form of debasement. All of this is about power and the abuse of it.

  —AKA Smith Read AKA Smith's other letters
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