But for months you folks have been going on about the rule of law because Bush has violated the law repeatedly and obstructed justice at every opportunity.

The law is the law, right? Or do we observe when we feel like it?

Yeah, sometimes we do and sometimes we don't, if we are to be honest about it. You can say, "Yeah, but..."

Then you are just haggling over price, if you get my drift.

I have a draw full of them. Most of them counterfeit and as I just reminded a fellow over at Open Left, Ahmed Massoud was assassinated two days before Sept. 11 by two Al Qaeda agents posing as TV journalists coming to interview him.

-- L.W.M.

In more ways than one that doesn't address my question. In no way did I say that counterfeit passes could not be attempted. Of course they can, and of course they are. Are they successfully used by, as you have called the protesters several times now, kids that don't know what the hell they're doing? Kids, young amateurs, using them to "violently protest" in street demonstrations such as the ones we are discussing? I suppose it has happened. But what has come of it? What has come of it that has given law enforcement the excuse to just unilaterally ignore all press passes? Or, as I said, allow law enforcement to just 'shoot first and ask questions later?

Your example of al Qaeda operatives counterfeiting passes with intent to assassinate is on another planet of examples from what we are discussing here. A bit 'breathless' you might say.

You have never seen a real riot, have you? It can be a police riot or a civilian riot depending on your point of view but in most cases the winner will be the forces of law and order.

A Serious Question For Those Who support the Actions of the Shock-troops at the RNC

Why, I wonder, are there those who actually willfully and happily support the authoritarian tactics that are currently on display at the Republican Convention? I mean this question seriously.

Let me repeat this again:

I neither defend nor condemn these actions. My only intent is to explain their nature in terms analytical rather than emotional. There were to models of policing I studied back in the 80's. The military model and the professional model. I am a proponent of the professional model and prefer that policing and criminal justice adopt the professional model, like medicine or law. There are some very real analogies there with both those professions, as well as social work. That would mean that one needs a college education, even a Masters degree, to become a cop, and must engage in continuing education, to name just one requisite among many. Now, all you need is a high school education, some military background preferred. Even under that professional model, very little would be different. Urban riot control isn't pretty.

he choice to use violence is one of consequence including the likely alienation of many who substantially share your grievances but abhor your tactics.

On a personal level, it may be satisfying to spit on republican delegates, call them names, obstruct their buses, frighten them individually ... but then what remains when the circus has left town.

Like most people, cops don't like people who make their lives and jobs more difficult ... they don't like people who insult them, harrass them, taunt them, spit on them. They don't like people who threaten to fling ecrement (apparently this is a repeated threat/fear, which I don't know the basis of).

The cops are there to protect the delegates, the protestors, the spectators of the spectacle of their interaction. The young, the old, the peaceful and the not-very-peaceful, the wealthy, the poor, the homeless and impaired who wander into scenes most people would avoid.

IMHO, the behavior of the worst jeopardized the safety of the vast majority of the protestors ... ain't that always the way...

Let's just hope the police were well enough able to keep most everyone in control and most of everybody safe who wanted to be safe that wannabe vigilantes stay home NEXT time.

In the early days of the Iraq war, here in Colorado, most peace vigils were visited by roaming bands of "counterdemonstrators" who apparently staked out a route so as to "counterdemonstrate" at various planned local functions on any given day -- loud, ugly, provocative (and small just a handful) -- but menacing. Thank god they got bored or whatever.

Yes, there is irony that these "day of rage" occur during the waning phase of Bush/Cheney farewell tour ... hey they've waned so far they aren't even showing up!

The MSM seems to be pretty quiet about what's happening in St. Paul, while smaller papers and news outlets I don't recognize keep printing the same number of protesters arrested (250) and a paragraph that generally reads:

"Protesters smashed windows, punctured car tires and threw bottles. Police, who used pepper spray to disperse demonstrators, reported making at least 250 arrests."

Oh, and one story about an elderly delegate being hit by (possibly) a bleach-like substance (his accompaniament claims 60 protesters rushed them, which sounds hyperbolic to me), but no other actual anecdotes.

So Glenn, you're my best resource--what the hell is going on? And why does it seem like no one in the MSM cares?

Do you have some documented evidence of "violent protesters" successfully using fake press passes in order to stroll the streets of demonstrations?

I have a draw full of them. Most of them counterfeit and as I just reminded a fellow over at Open Left, Ahmed Massoud was assassinated two days before Sept. 11 by two Al Qaeda agents posing as TV journalists coming to interview him.

I'd treat you all to an anecdote about the little, 150 lbs. 5'6" cop who took a 350 lbs. 6' 4" drunken angry Samoan into custody after he totally demolished a bar just by talking to him but I'm not in the mood right now. If you happen to live in a community that still allows ride alongs, contact your PD and see if you can go on one for a shift. Most of them probably stopped doing it long ago but you might get lucky.