I have a draw full of them. Most of them counterfeit and as I just reminded a fellow over at Open Left, Ahmed Massoud was assassinated two days before Sept. 11 by two Al Qaeda agents posing as TV journalists coming to interview him.

-- L.W.M.

In more ways than one that doesn't address my question. In no way did I say that counterfeit passes could not be attempted. Of course they can, and of course they are. Are they successfully used by, as you have called the protesters several times now, kids that don't know what the hell they're doing? Kids, young amateurs, using them to "violently protest" in street demonstrations such as the ones we are discussing? I suppose it has happened. But what has come of it? What has come of it that has given law enforcement the excuse to just unilaterally ignore all press passes? Or, as I said, allow law enforcement to just 'shoot first and ask questions later?

Your example of al Qaeda operatives counterfeiting passes with intent to assassinate is on another planet of examples from what we are discussing here. A bit 'breathless' you might say.

But for months you folks have been going on about the rule of law because Bush has violated the law repeatedly and obstructed justice at every opportunity.

The law is the law, right? Or do we observe when we feel like it?

Yeah, sometimes we do and sometimes we don't, if we are to be honest about it. You can say, "Yeah, but..."

Then you are just haggling over price, if you get my drift.

No one in the MSN cares because their interests are the same as the establishment's. Ever watch a broadcast of your local news? Notice how they all have the same form, and they go out of their way to talk about America or your home town in the most glowing, rhetorical terms? Remember when the Pentagon was sending retired military personnel onto cable and network news shows to spread false, government propaganda about the War in Iraq, and the fact that this was happening began to leak out and none of the MSN would cover the story (still won't) because they were acting in league with the government and were complicit in the deceit?

As for "What is going on", Glenn is attempting to describe it to you. There is in fact an army of shock-troops like an angry hive of bees spread out across St. Paul, there mission to subdue, repress, arrest and otherwise fuck-up anyone who will not be meek and quiet. They are the storm-troopers, paid, indoctrinated machines with only one purpose: do the defiled bidding of their masters. As usual, a couple of people, or even a couple of dozen, may break some windows or otherwise cause some damage to property, and this is excuse enough for the MSN to condemn all activists and protesters as catalyzed by violent motives. So, read Glenn because he is attempting to factually cover what is going on, do not listen to the MSN because they are manipulating the truth at every turn in order to portray the situation in a light that serves their interests.

You've had two people show up saying that they felt there were elements present with criminal intent to disrupt and you have rat-packed and swarmed them and accused them of being trolls and what not. You have the website, which clearly gives the impression that they not only intended to do this but openly and proudly bragged about it. It isn't so much the methods, it is poor tactical and strategic timing. If only they had been around in Florida in 2000 or Ohio in 2004. Now, just a bunch of asshats. Keep defending them until even you come to your senses. You will eventually.

about false flag operatives causing havoc in order to demonize the protestors?

the nytimes internet front page under "politics" - link on my name

At one point, a group of about 200 protesters — many wearing black bandannas across their faces and some wearing black balaclavas — roamed through downtown, shouting and chanting and throwing street signs and concrete planters in the road. At another point, a police officer grabbed one of the youths. Others wrested him away, then appeared to knock the officer to the ground. On one knee, the officer released an arc of pepper spray.

Elsewhere in St. Paul, a prominent Democratic Party strategist, Donna Brazile, was hit by pepper spray while trying to walk around protesters outside the convention hall, Ms. Brazile said in an interview.

“I got a strong whiff — just toxic — and my head and throat are still hurting,” said Ms. Brazile, who appears on CNN as a political analyst. “I’ll avoid the protesters tomorrow.”

Along the highways leading to downtown, protesters stood on overpasses with signs demanding the withdrawal of troops from Iraq, war crimes charges against the Bush administration and new laws on equal pay.

In one of the most chaotic moments, members of the Republican delegation from Connecticut said they were shoved and spat upon by protesters near the convention hall, according to the state party’s executive director, Heath Fahle. He wrote an item on the party’s blog describing a “human chain” of protesters who tried to block Republicans at a security perimeter near the convention site. Besides the shoving and spitting, the protesters shouted epithets at the dozens of delegates, Mr. Fahle wrote.

[gosh, I answered my own question... though the NYT is the first place I've seen mention of their "demands" or issues]

Glenn and Jane and others may think this kind of guerilla street theater is useful and productive at this juncture. I don't. It's not that I'm always opposed to it in every instance. Mostly I think it needs to be used sparingly and carefully. I'm definitely opposed to it now. Like I said, definitely a day late and a dollar short.

"You have never seen a real riot, have you?"

Actually yes, 2000 in L.A. at the DNC, and that too was a shock-troop started riot. A man throws an empty plastic bottle over a fence at a cop and thousands of other cops pour in firing tear gas and rubber bullets indiscriminately at thousands of innocent, law-abiding citizens. And guess what, the innocent, law-abiding citizens don''t fight back, they just run for their lives, because they never had any intention of being involved in anything violent at all, but they of course did not get their wish.