and, imho, quite possibly something that he had put aside for this purpose. Absolute speculation on my part.

He had had problems with medication/alcohol combinations in the past. His house had been searched again during his hospitalization. It's reasonable to think that his wife and son were keeping potentially harmful things like guns and drugs away from him.

We don't know whose prescription it was. He could have stolen another family member's pain medicine impulsively just that day when the opportunity arose. Quite simply, we don't know.

We also don't know if he was intubated in the field or ever -- and/or if he was placed life support (ventilator)(likely) and if any attempt to extubate him occurred after 24-48 hours, and/or what his EEG showed.

IOW, some overdoses result in people choking on their own vomit or otherwise compromising the supply of oxygen to their brain. These unfortunate people may survive in a "chronic vegetative state" or may have stroke-like damage even if they survive the overdose -- the brain damage is not typically any more "reversible" than a stroke.

I'm not sure that we know that Ivins died of liver failure, though that would be "expected" given a "massive overdose" of tylenol; however a flat-line EEG might prompt removal of life support given no expectation of meaningful recovery, depending on the wishes of the family, etc.

There's a sh@tload we don't know.

Wouldn't people in such labs be subjected to mandatory regular drug tests? Don't know, but it seems likely, for just the reasons you proffer. No one wants people with psycho-active drug problems mixing the anthrax.

There's a lot to be suspicious about this case, but I think the one thing that's not odd is Ivins suicide.

I completely agree. His background of mental instability, combined with the fact that the FBI was going to sit down with his attorney and him to discuss its evidence against him, is enough to convince me.

Also, people seem to think that the guy swallowed a bottle of Tylenol, and that it seems suspicious. My understanding is that he took tylenol with codeine, which is similar to vicodin (except that vicodin has hydrocodone which is a synthetic version of codeine). Most people I know have a bottle of vicodin hanging around, from either a dentist or a doctor (I have some tylenol w/codeine left over from a car accident in April). A codeine overdose would result in respiratory failure. We don't know that he died from liver failure. And, someone taking a bottle of vicodin to take his own life doesn't seem suspicious to me at all. It's probably relatively common.

LWM

Wouldn't people in such labs be subjected to mandatory regular drug tests? Don't know, but it seems likely, for just the reasons you proffer. No one wants people with psycho-active drug problems mixing the anthrax.

-- omooex

You would really think so, wouldn't you? I mean, you have to pee in a jar to work at a supermarket these days. But guess what, don't count on it. And maybe it was once to gain employment and random testing afterwards. That mostly caught pot smokers, the least problematic because THC is not water soluble and remains in the body (fat cells, I think) for up to a month. All the other crap metabolizes fast and flushes out in a day or so.

And the more I think about it, of all the things at Wiki to threaten and harass people over - an entry on a friggin' sorority? That's a nutbar in my book.

Isn't that sort of test usually reserved for lower level workers, not researchers or professors?

omooex - sorry to hear what happened to your partner. It sounds a lot like what happened to my girlfriend, so trust me when I say I understand what you mean by "people don't make rational decisions".

Still, it's worth noting that when people off themselves, they usually choose methods that don't take days to finish them off. Further, I can't see why someone intelligent wouldn't do some research to figure out the most effective way to kill themselves. This is why I think it was probably more an accidental mixture of alcohol and pain killers. (note: Tylenol with codeine still contains acetaminophen)

He has a history of alcohol problems (hence the therapy). He's been found unresponsive before. No suicide note.

kristen/susan - we don't know that he died of liver failure, but the timeline jives with other reports of people who died by overdosing on acetaminophen. They showed up at 1:15 AM July 27 to find him unresponsive, and he finally passed on July 29. It takes two to four days to die of liver failure if you OD on acetaminophen.

I keep saying...the autopsy report would sure be nice right about now...

would harass and threaten people over politics and religion.

Not mentioning any names.

;-)

But a sorority? WTF is up with that?

There's a lot to be said for your basic scenario (minus the amusing embellishments) as a narrative for what happened.

Too often, we look toward the lower road, and miss important parts of the view. Taking the higher road, and acknowledging that many if not most of those involved were acting in good faith should actually make any major discrepancies more apparent.

Y'all know what a flathead is, right?

Derbig will tell you.

Ford even made a flathead V8 once. Mosty people associate with a style of vintage motorcycle engine.

Jimmyflathead?

I should have added the point, that I believe that these decisions are often taken spontaneously and the methods are decided upon for availability in that rush of the moment, which is why I think they rarely make sense to someone viewing the scene objectively. There was a series in the SF Chronicle about people who had committed suicide by jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge that was fascinating in this regard. There was one story in particular that impressed me; the woman who stopped her car in the middle of the Golden Gate bridge, with a full load of groceries in the back seat, ran to the edge and just jumped off with no hesitation.