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Monday, August 4, 2008 12:00 AM

Additional key facts re: the anthrax investigation

The media's key witness as to the psychological state of Bruce Ivins -- Jean Carol Duley -- has a lengthy history that undermines her credibility.

The letters thread is now closed.

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Tuesday, August 5, 2008 08:00 AM

about that lyophilizer ..

Anyone working on vaccine research would have a lyophilizer. This is from the wikipedia:

Pharmaceutical companies often use freeze drying to increase the shelf life of products, such as vaccines and other injectables. By removing the water from the material and sealing the material in a vial, the material can be easily stored, shipped and later reconstituted to its original form for injection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeze_drying

Secondly, as CargoCult has mentioned, the spores must be separated from the culture to make the sample that was used in an attack. Unlike many bacilli, anthrax cannot be raised on “broth”, at least in the same sense as e. coli. Anthrax must consume live animal cells which gave raise to the now infamous picture of Hatfil in full protection posing with a “bioreactor”. A bioreacter is a machine for large scale “3d “ cell culture as opossed to 2D plates. The culture produced contains feeder cells, anthrax bacilli and anthrax spores. The spores must be separated from the slurry. To get 2 grams of spores, one would have to centerfuge a huge amount of raw material. A discussion if the centerfuge process, and it's complications has already been placed on salon.

http://letters.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/04/09/abc_anthrax/permalink/e98e82a8f07ea67ad138787107fd5685.html

Tuesday, August 5, 2008 08:00 AM

Lessons Of History

Juan Cole reminds readers today that it was Reagan's administration who gave Saddam anthrax... and it was the Ames strain! And that was AFTER he gassed the Kurds.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article807098.ece

Think Progress reminds readers that Colin Powell mentioned Saddam's anthrax in his UN speech:

Iraq declared 8,500 liters of anthrax, but UNSCOM estimates that Saddam Hussein could have produced 25,000 liters. If concentrated into this dry form, this amount would be enough to fill tens upon tens upon tens of thousands of teaspoons. And Saddam Hussein has not verifiably accounted for even one teaspoon-full of this deadly material.

http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/002472.html

Tuesday, August 5, 2008 08:02 AM

Tylenol

They found that Dr. Ivins, who had a history of alcohol abuse

He was in some kind of Group Therapy setting (Duley) and probably of the substance abuse kind. It would make sense, wrt Duley. Recovering addicts often become substance abuse counselors. They have more credibility with their clients than professionals who haven't been through it.

Had a full autopsy been conducted, this claim could have been substantiated. It could account for Ivins being particularly sensitive to Tylenol poisoning if he indeed did have a long-term alcohol problem, as both acetamenophen and alcohol target the liver. A randomly found article I found when googling "autopsy liver Tylenol damage alcohol" is here:

http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/2000/01_00/draganov.shtml

That's an older paper, 2000.

This is cribbed from Harvard Med and other sources, and more recent, just at an AOL Health page:

http://www.aolhealth.com/conditions/avoiding-acetaminophen-related-liver-injury

How does the liver get into trouble?

Acetaminophen itself isn’t toxic. But when the liver breaks down acetaminophen, it produces a toxic by-product, N-acetyl-p-benzoquinone imine (NAPQI). Normally, NAPQI is neutralized and ushered out of the body by a substance called glutathione. But excess acetaminophen can overwhelm glutathione stores, allowing NAPQI to build up and damage the liver. Alcohol can deplete glutathione, which is one reason why it shouldn’t be mixed with acetaminophen. Glutathione levels are also reduced by certain genetic defects, inadequate nutrition, and some medical conditions or medications.

It's an unusual method of suicide for a gun owning male, even with some likely knowledge, based on his science background, of the dangers of acetaminophen overdose. Acetomeniphen deaths are usually accidental, not intentional.

Tuesday, August 5, 2008 08:04 AM

fauxreal -

thank you - you sound like a very decent person - See i really always try very hard to stay on topic and i actually wanted to ad to the discussion very seriously that this is probably also the wrong site tp play detective, because some decent people are not interested in disecting Ivins liver - ups here i go again - and you right we shouldn't love the audience - Glenn probably doesn't - So - do you think i can post again or would you say i am one of these terrible trolls you are talking about...

Tuesday, August 5, 2008 08:06 AM

On the comments

I think the resources to moderate the comments are not there. One learns quickly to skip the 9/11 and civil war comments, and the personality contests between various participants. Maybe the comments thread seems chaotic to one who has not yet learned to do this.

Tuesday, August 5, 2008 08:09 AM

oh well, my bad ... still, I'm reminded of the breadcrumbs that Hansel and Gretel dropped ...

I think anyone with access to the anthrax that was sent ** must have realized ** that the trail would lead back to their general vicinity, and that the "better" the anthrax, the smaller the circle of suspicion would be.

Seems very stereotypic cat-and-mouse "brilliant arrogant scientist"** versus some "everyman" cop-on-the-beat cold-case G-man doing diligent "old fashioned police work" to bring him down.

** see also: rich handsome movie star or eccentric millionaire or internationally acclaimed artist

Steve Hatfil was the "perfect storm of suspicions" suspect ... oooops ...

After that it appears it became rather like looking for your dropped keys under the street lamp because that's where the light it... without out those scientists who had access to anthrax, they've got nothing.

Tuesday, August 5, 2008 08:09 AM

Inquests

Because of the nature of this case, an independent medical exam should be carried out on Ivins. This should be standard procedure for all politically sensitive cases. Look at Marilyn Monroe ... died of 'suicide' with no drugs in her stomach.

Even if alcoholics can die taking enough acetaminophen (how much!) you can also be force fed or injected with acetaminophen. I.E. are there any signs of trauma or skin marks? Or perhaps the drug masks something else? I.e. treat it like a possible homicide to really clear up this question.

Tuesday, August 5, 2008 08:15 AM

OVERHAUL THE FBI AS WE KNOW IT

"The Frederick-News Post Online, the FBI is still searching for evidence against Ivins, as they removed two computers from a public library there."

Does this look or sound like a real investigation to you? Nope. The FBI has spent millions, including lawsuits now obviously, trying to catch the person who killed people with anthrax rigth after 9/11 - or over 7 years ago! 7 YEARS AGO.

At this rate, Usama Bin Laden could be "spider-holed" in some Congressman's coat closet in Washington, D. C. and the FBI wouldn't find him for another 21 years!

God, somebody please revoke this agency's funding, fire them all, and start over!

Did they ever get computer training in that agency? I recall how they had to FEDEX the 9/11 terrorist information around the country because they didn't know how to email each other. ROFLMA

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