I also realize that without some form of in vitro animal testing, there would likely be NO testing before a drug is sent to be used on poor people and college students and actual patients who have some hope that the damn drug is going to work.

Because many of the 'human test subjects' are the poor and students at local universities and colleges. Why? Money.

Some of the testing that Eli Lilly does is on human subjects. Not something that I'd do but I guess if I were hungry and had no money I'd probably consider it if it paid well.

Comments were made about re-using human test subjects from one trial to another and they have time limits between testing but it's also an issue...

The average human medication isn't tested nearly as much as it should be. Some animal drugs are better tested than human ones are. Think about that the next time you pop a pill...

I don't work for Lilly nor do I represent them or am I paid by them. I toured their facility in 1990 with a group of medical students as a guest.

I was impressed that they used Apple Lisa computers. But I am a techno-geek...

The Brad Blog notes that the WaPo is doing strange things with their anthrax stories:

While their top story on page A1 today is headlined "Scientists Question FBI's Probe of Anthrax Attacks" and sub-titled "Ivins Could Not Have Been Attacker, Some Say," the paper nonetheless managed to scrub from their website --- or at least completely replace --- a story they ran originally on Friday afternoon questioning the same points (whether Ivins had the means, ability or access to the dry, weaponized anthrax used in the attack letters against senior Democratic Senators and other perceived "liberals") with another that greatly softened concerns about those questions.

No retraction or correction notice --- unethically, in our opinion --- was given for WaPo's odd swaperoo. The Friday WaPo story we linked to that day --- which was dated "Friday, August 1, 2008; 5:46 PM" and reported that that the purported "Anthrax Killer", Bruce E. Ivins "had no access to dry, powdered anthrax" at his U.S. Army bioweapons lab in Fort Detrick, MD --- was simply swapped out with a completely different story in its place on the matter, dated Saturday, August 2, 2008. The same URL was used for both stories, but the Saturday story didn't have the bulk of the reporting which quoted named experts and colleagues questioning Ivins' ability to even carry out such an attack.

And the FBI just seized a couple of PCs from Ivin's local library (apparently without a warrant):

http://wtopnews.com/?nid=598&sid=1452848

What's most discouraging of course, is that the media now spout Bushite lies seemingly without needing to be goaded, threatened or fed them, in a disturbingly Pavlovian fashion.

The answer, which I can't help but believe is implicitly true in every respect, was in this Letter on the "anthrax" thread:

http://letters.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/permalink/cc938826b2f8362c614143462695f7dc.html

Supported by this material:

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2008/07/377489.shtml

I seem to be the only one who is aware of the awesome significance of this investigation by Mr. Mapes, but heck, I'm used to that.

His sincerity, at any rate, is beyond question.

I'm relieved you survived your latest "adventure" with your wife....

Hopefully she's not planning any hunting outings with you soon.

Derb... I know you've recently mastered this linky thing, but I myself have yet to. I share AnnieW's relief that you survived your kayak trip, and belatedly tip my hat to your pants-wettingly hi-larious description of cinderblocks, chains, etc. But would you mind sending me those links in a nice blue clickable format. I have my talents, but typing is not among them.

Sig at gmail.com

According to Jean Duley's testimony, Ivins said at a group counseling session, presumably in front of other witnesses--

--That he had obtained a bullet proof vest and a gun and had a detailed plan to kill his kill coworkers.

--That because he was about to be indicted on capital murder charges he was going to go out in a blaze of glory. That he was going to take everybody out with him.

--That they weren't going to take him out without a fight.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/audio/national/20080802scientist.mp3

"After Dr. Ivins made the threats on July 9 about killing his co-workers, he was detained while at work and taken to a hospital before being transferred to a nearby psychiatric hospital."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/02/us/02scientist.html?bl&ex=1217908800&en=8cf38e35a8549324&ei=5087%0A

At this juncture, the FBI could have easily obtained an order to hold Ivins at Sheppard Pratt, the psychiatric hospital where Ivins had already been forcibly detained through the actions of Jean Duley.

No need for Gitmo, indefinite material witness detention or deportation shenanigans. It would have been perfectly legal and reasonable to have Bruce Ivins held at this point.

In fact, it is so irresponsible to not have held him at this point that absent any serious disciplinary actions and explanations from the FBI, and considering that the FBI has used much stronger legally questionable techniques in far less serious circumstances, I believe it is logical to ask the question--

Was the FBI trying to provoke Bruce Ivins suicide or even another terrorist attack?

The FBI has some serious explaining to do in this case.

I think the Mooser survived by keeping his gaze on two equally sized prizes. At least that's the reason I heard he went on this adventure.

two equally sized prizes

I soooo need to work on my "heaving" ability.

I thought you could not put "links in the body of a letter. You can link one address to your sig. I try to put the links in a nice seperate area of white space, all you have to do is "copy" the address and "paste" it into your browser address window, and click "go". There's no need to type out the address, as far as I know.

And I did not exactly survive the kayaking expedition this morning, either. The renting was a ruse to try a couple different boats, which we did, and then on the way back to the kayak shop from the dock she put her arms around me, looked deep into my eyes, her lips parted slightly, and she was breathing in short pants (she's always showing off her legs) as she ran her tongue seductively over her perfect pearl-like dentition. I pressed closer and whispered "My darling Moosette", our lips met, while she raised one shapely calf behind her, and when the pinkish mist of love cleared from my eyes, my wallet and all my credit cards were gone. I caught up with her at the shop, but by then it was too late. I am now the proud owner of my wife's new 9.5' Heritage kayak. Yellow. Did you know they make the goddam paddles out of carbon fiber now? A merciful syncope saved me from seeing the final bill, but now I'm home I'm gonna get that shapely calf and put it on the barbeque.