So the Heritage Foundation believes that had it not been for Ronald Reagan, Jesse Helms, and the like, the Soviet Union would have been strong enough to go on forever? Interesting. I'm sure elsewhere they argued that Communism would destroy itself, but this disappears when it comes to hagiography.

It's sad. Mara Liasson was once a pretty good reporter.

Now...she's one of the most sanctimonious of Villagers, a textbook arrogant twit. Why NPR hasn't sat on her more forcefully really is a mystery. I know people at NPR who have to think she's as much a twit as we do.

NPR has moved far to the right in 20 years..although you'd think that big gift from Joan Crock would have given the News Department some independence...instead, they have idiots like Juan Williams, who couldn't analyse his way out of a paper bag, and Ken Rudin, who, speech-impeded and all, couldn't find a genuine insight if his life depended on it.

NPR once employed a lot of very smart people. Now, increasingly, it employs a bunch of arrogant Villagers...high Broderism seems the order of the day there..although the occasional good story still manages to leak out, somehow.

That is not my claim. My claims are that 1) The polling data allow for the reading that Americans want both A and B; and 2) The polling data do not unambiguously show that Americans want only A regardless of any facts on the ground in Iraq.

Liasson's claim was that American's want B, not C -- where C is "withdrawal based upon a campaign promise."

Oddly I didn't see an admission of wrongdoing in that article. Sorry bud, but unless you have a challenge to the Article 2 argument via the other two branches, looks to me like you've got bupkis. Come back when you have something legitimate.

-- shooter242

the president has admitted to ordering a program that has been, by three judges, ruled to be illegal

I assume you think standing means we can forget the above

I think it means lawsuits can't go forward right now. I don't know why you or anybody would want to pretend it didn't happen.

If we actually declared our intention to leave or even "retreat" back to our embassy, leaving our multinationals to hire their own independent contractors and manage their own security ... boy howdy, things might well change enormously ...

Everyone wants to bring out troops home. Everybody.

I will leave out for the moment the bases and the prisons we control and who gets dibbs on those assets, that infrastructure, not to mention who we intend to turn custody, management and "jurisdiction" our prisoners -- human beings -- over to. The fate of our translators and other support personnel is being famously neglected if well publicized since they assist the media.

With as weak a central government as Maliki has been able to "helm," finding anyone to turn command over to is going to be a bitch ... oh and don't they know it. The Rethugs claim we can't set a timetable because they'll resolve to outwait us ... they already are ... sheesh.

However, first, we have to declare our intentions and then we can discuss what we mean by our intentions ... forgive me, but it's not about the bike.

Removing 60-80,000 combat personnel out of 140,000 is not-so-impressive when we avoid mention of the 140,000 independent contractors and/or the additional support personnel to be imported to support our multinationals (and/or their new, improved "rules of engagement").

Again, talk to me when anyone has declared their intention to actually pull out ... this "drawing down" can go on for decades and may well.

My claims are that 1) The polling data allow for the reading that Americans want both A and B;

Which polling data does that? Be specific.

…Americans have, for the most part, been standing on the sidewalk quietly staring at this authoritarian parade as it marches on. You can watch it tear American democracy apart, bit by bit, bite by bite. Or you can exercise your rights too, while you still have them, and get just as concerned, active, and giving to protect yourself and your country. If you, and other liberals, other moderates, other conservatives with conscience do, then everything can turn out all right. But we have to get going. If you are the only person you know who grasps what’s happening, then you’ve got to take leadership, help inform, and organize others. One person can do so much; you’ve no idea! And two can do so much more.

But time is running out, fast, and nearly everything is at stake.

-------

This book is highly readable for the average layperson (it is not a clinical psychology text). The entire book in pdf format can be found here:

http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob

--

Thanks very much for your insights. I have only read your intro and am eager to read the rest of your free book. I spent a lot of time, 28 years among authoritarians in the military and know how dangerous they can be. Of course there are many in the military who are not authoritarians. The military culture and mission enables these insecure people to stay around and too often succeed just as it appears the political culture fosters too many authoritarians.

The polling results Glenn has copiously posted support that Americans want "A." Liaisson, however, is claiming most Americans hold: "If B, then A." There is not support for the latter, if/then proposition.

(I loved Logic 101 in college. But it is becoming tedious to see it getting mashed in this thread.)

...in the 1980s at California Public Radio. It was a live daily 15 minute news and features program inserted into "All Things Considered."

She was sloppy with facts then and hasn't improved since. As one of her contemporary colleagues put it to me recently, "Mara likes nothing more than the sound of her own voice."

As for me, I can't stand it. Her voice comes on, my radio goes off.

1) A majority of Americans want the major deployment of U.S. occupation forces redeployed out of the areas where they are targets, perhaps just north to the Kurdish region.

Only an idiot wouldn't acknowledge this. A better question no pollsters seem to ask might be if the American people really want to just turn their backs on the mess we've created or if there is anything we can really do at this point.

2) A majority of Americans have no conception of the logistical and technical mechanics of the withdrawal of a major ground occupation works under hostile conditions, (where did Quick Strategy go? Did he retire, too?) as evidenced by the attempt to parse Obama's words upthread vis a vis "combat troops". I've posted about this before. People do get tired of repeating themselves (That's why I'm semi-retired, Ethics Professor. Come to think of it, that's what professors do, isn't it?)

Under hostile conditions, what we have in Iraq, combat troops are usually the last to leave. But without some support troops, combat troops are ineffective and somebody has to provide security as they are peeled, or sliced off, (hence the French term, "tranches") collapsing inward on an shrinking defensive perimeter. Americans tend to think troop withdrawal under hostile conditions is somehow easier than invading or advancing. It is if you have pacified (or decimated) the population. That usually puts an end to the "hostile conditions". It's just not that easy to "get out" without taking more casualties than we are now suffering. Even if some political resolution is reached for withdrawal of troops, you can be certain factions will take the opportunity to create mayhem. And don't underestimate the vulnerability of a retreating or withdrawing occupation force, even under the most optimal conditions. It won't be like the Highway of Death of the Iraqi army out of Kuwait, but it could be very ugly. Do any of you know where they withdraw to? Kuwait? Jordan? Are those routes out secure? Routes? It's the desert! One decent highway, if your lucky. Can you spell ambush? Do you think M1 tanks just drive out on their own gas turbine engines (0.6 miles per gallon, do the math)? Fly out on wings? No. They get loaded on flat-bed trucks and transported out, usually by private contractors. A really easy target for IEDs. Who provides security? The Iraqi army? Ha! Laughing my ass off...

That's why it's called a quagmire kids.

And Obama probably can't order Blackwater's merc out, so don't blame him.