I've posted a timeline of FISA stuff including links to all of Obama's comments on the matter: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/7/7/115227/7027/466/547691

I particularly like this Obama comment from the day H.R.6304 passed the House:

Under [H.R. 6304] an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President's illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over.

Unless Obama has special knowledge that Bush will abide by the amended FISA, he is saying that H.R. 6304 amends FISA to legalize Bush's unconstitutional surveillance program, thus allowing their continuation. And he is welcoming that situation.

...but not all obeyed. Qwest, for instance, refused to participate in the illegal activities. So those of you who are customers of Qwest should thanks them for being good citizens and not good soldiers. As for the telecoms who participated in the wiretapping, they deserve punishment---not immunity!

This is great!

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan2_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2

"What all of this is really about -- the reason why political elites like Nancy Soderberg are so eager to defend it -- is because they really do believe that lawbreaking isn't wrong, that it doesn't deserve punishment, when engaged in by them rather than by commoners. People who defend telecom immunity or who say that it's not a big deal are, by logical necessity, adopting this view: 'Our highest political officials and largest corporations shouldn't face consequences when they break our laws as long as they claim it was for our own good'."

Although I have been admiring and learning a lot from Glenn Greenwald's blog for months--it is the only blog I regularly follow--I find that sometimes it is too polemical sometimes. I do not think he has the right to speak to what others think, only what he can infer from their words. By entering the heads of those he does not agree with, he begins to sound too much the conspiratorialist. I tend to think that we can mostly attribute--as Greenwald usually does--peoples' errors to stupidity and/or laziness rather than evil intent.

Indeed, but who is the final authority on whether or not Article 2 makes what Bush did legal? Not you, nor Glenn, nor anyone else other than the Supreme Court. Until then, the best anyone can do is offer an opinion. Until then it's "alleged" illegal act.

What the telecoms did was illegal; not "allegedly" illegal, but illegal.

Do you really think data-mining like they do at Amazon.com is equivalent to killing 6 million Jews? Of course not, you're just mouthing off with he most emotionally laden caricature you can think to make up for a lack of argument. I can see you are not a serious person. Adios.

Your ad hominems mitigate neither your strawman arguments nor your shifting of terms. Wiretapping is not data-mining, and the trials at Nuremberg established that "obeying orders" was not an excuse.

When the Commander in Chief of all those regulatory agencies, makes a Presidential request, it would be foolish to refuse. As in all things having to do with Federal Agencies, one complies first and worries about ramifications later. That is the real world.

To learn just where that kind of thinking can lead, Google Nuremberg

Please. Do you really think data-mining like they do at Amazon.com is equivalent to killing 6 million Jews?
— shooter242

Sorry shooter, but this is what you were supposed to find:

Charter of the International Military Tribunal

August 8, 1945

ARTICLE 8

The fact that the defendant acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior shall not free him from responsibility, but may be considered in mitigation of punishment if the Tribunal determine that justice so requires.

So wrong answer, but thanks for playing, shoots — What do we have for the losers, Johnny?

Oh, and by the way, in case you never realized it before, the Nuremberg trials were about more than extermination of the Jews. Current estimates are that more than 72 million people died in WW II, 47 million of which were non-combatants. So the first two indictments of the major war criminals at Nuremberg were:

Count One: Conspiracy to Wage Aggressive War

This count helped address the crimes committed before the war began, showing a plan to commit crimes during the war.

Count Two: Waging Aggressive War, or "Crimes Against Peace"

Including "the planning, preparation, initiation, and waging of wars of aggression, which were also wars in violation of international treaties, agreements, and assurances."

These are primarily the crimes for which the military defendants, like Keitel and Jodl, were hanged (Goering would have been too if he hadn't managed to off himself before the sentence was carried out).

So while data-mining like they do at amazon.com is not much like exterminating 6 million Jews, the invasion of Iraq was very much like the invasion of Poland: Conspiracy to wage aggressive war and Waging aggressive war.

Nice try at deflection, shoots, but you better stick to working on your iron shots out of the rough.

Glenn, et al.,

I spoke with someone named Johanna in the advertising department at the Hill. She quoted me around $7,960 for a full page black and white ad with all the artwork already done. It would be more if we needed them to help with the artwork. She said we could get it in tomorrow's paper if we got the finished ad to them by 2pm today. Their number is (202) 628-8500. You may already be working on this.

I was flat on a hospital cot at Kimbrough Army Hospital, ill, at Fort Mead when all hell broke loose at Kent State.

My foot was sore then as it is today. If a thousand shoes fit a sore foot-if the shoe fits, swear at the show, and shoe sole?

The good news is~no snoop can rob yoo of a smile. Does YKW ever grin? Does his/her feet have a billion bunion?

Politico's never had a hand callous. Politico's show up with another crappy spiel after the honest toil is complete. work?

No. Honest toil would give Meese billions of nightmares. Sweats. Fibbers can't wipe the ache from their depraved, vile, putrid, and stinky souls.

It's best to reread Glenn's post a second time with a good set of opera glasses. You get a clearer sense how the pro-telecom critters discombobulate.

WHY do crooks, thugs, and robbers wish to treat the Constitution as a dirty gutter rag? The boss says: `scribble a dead-pan piece, as if you were a bloody war-artist. O Bloody.

Boss orders: `use sardine fish oil, and crude oil, and brush sludge on a pro-snoop, and kill the innocent people, as if it's okay, "commoners" canvas. GG. comments: `"Commoners"... gads.

It's over/out for today.

~People should not be happy now:

~They should wait till after they die.

Mary Morr teased that: Mary Mary,

How does a flower garden grow?

Mary, not so contrary, responded:

`Oh,

with cockle shells and gentle maidens,

and honest humans lined up in a row.