and/or the pardon of a corporation.... My head spins at times...

Pardoning for "civil liability" seemed a stretch at best ...

I guess, Stay tuned

re: shorter Mona.

They've covered their bases.

Especially if this legislation passes.

(Pass the paper bags. This stuff makes me hyperventilate.)

...Obama has taken to wearing the flag pin. Think it will garner him the vote of that lady from PA who kvetched about his not wearing it during that infamous ABC debate?

Everyone knows that purity trolls are teh stupid.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/6/29/20378/5225/643/543446

This is easily the clearest, simplest, most straightforward illumination of our modern political situation that I've seen for years. It's 100% dead-on right. The essence of brilliance is being the first to point out the obvious.

And, "moving to the center," ... center of what? I suppose they're referring to the center of the Washington DC beltway.

Many, many thanks, Glenn.

sheesh, how the incessant name-calling depresses me.

Watched Olbermann's special comment tonight and here's his fatal flaw. He says that Bush can't pardon everyone because it would be an admission of guilt. So if he issues pardons, it will tell the world that he's guilty. Well to that I say, do you think Bush gives a rat's ass about what people think of him? Do you think that's going to stop him? I say no, he's going to pardon everyone and make sure he won't ever see one day in jail. Then to top it off, he'll make millions giving speeches and living off our tax dollars after leaving office. But Olbermann while it was clear he was excusing Obama for voting for this FISA bill, he did make it clear it was Obama's choice. He said either way Obama votes, he's going to get smeared by the right. So in a way, I think Olbermann was saying he should vote against the bill. If you are going to take the hit, you might as well do it for the right reasons.

AH! SUN-FLOWER. by William Blake.

Ah, Sun-Flower, weary of time,

Who contest the steps of the sun

Seeking after the sweet golden chime,

Where the travelers journey is done.

Where Youth pine away with desire,

And the pale Virgin showered in snow.

Arise from the graves, and aspire

Where the Sunflower wished to go.

Weren't there people here saying the opposite ... that immunity COULD apply to criminal charges

but not to Civil liability ...

No. Pardons can be applied to criminal acts but not civil acts. That has been discussed here numerous times and is quite possibly what you are thinking of.

As olbermann pointed out on his program tonight by referencing John Dean, if Bush pardons the telecoms for criminal behavior it will be an admission that both the telecoms and the Bush administration broke the law.

While that may immunize them from liability and limit the amount the public will ever learn about the NSA programs, it will still be a "guilty" plea and a stain on the entire administration. As Dean -through Olbermann-pointed out, the admission of guilt was the reason Nixon never pardoned any of his aides.

While Bush is a failure and an abnormally reviled president, he isn't seen as a criminal by the public at large. Admitting he broke the law would change that. I think Bush is betting that if Obama were elected president he wouldn't dare to criminally prosecute members of the Bush cabinet or the major telecoms because it would polarize the government and ensure legislative gridlock.

There's also the matter that the NSA has been using these programs domestically for years and has built up an infrastructure around them: people's jobs depend on those programs and their bosses are well connected enough in DC to ensure their job's survival.

And then there's also the idiocy of a politician going against an agency that's been tapping his phone, email and god knows what else for 8 years. Nobody's that squeaky clean.

Heres the thing spacedogg, Bush doesn't care about what anyone thinks of him. He hasn't cared what the American people have thought of his policies the last 7.5 years. His refusal to change course on Iraq is proof of that. As for the difference between Nixon and Bush. Nixon, while completely ruthless and criminal, had atleast some sense of honor. Nixon resigned once it became untenable to stay in office. He resigned because he knew the fate of the country, was more important then Richard Nixon. Bush has no honor. He doesn't care what anyone thinks of him. He's going to do what's best for Bush, and everyone else can go to hell. But if he was to make the bet that Obama wouldn't prosecute him, I think he'd be right. Obama isn't going to prosecute Bush or anyone else from his administration. Obama is going to want to focus on getting his legislative goals enacted. He doesn't want anything to distract from that. Plus the RW'ers would scream to high heavens about how Obama was engaging in political prosecutions.

It does no good to attempt to discuss issues with our newest loon but it might help if you would try to understand where he takes his direction from.

Click my signature for a CONFIDENTIAL tape recording (legal under FISA, according to Bush) for details.

There are types of "weirdo" strangers.

Those reading @ UT after 12: midnight?

Take a pick. a fork. a spoon. a rest.

1) a piece of delicious blueberry pie.

or,

2) a loud drunk who needs a therapist.

There are types of "weirdo" strangers.

Those reading @ UT after 12: midnight?

Take a pick. a fork. a spoon. a rest.

1) a piece of delicious blueberry pie.

or,

2) a loud drunk who needs a therapist.

okay.

Now the onion soup is good for a cry.

Now Jebbie, don't weep tears in beer.

A site here is so rowdy burglar's fear.

Making good on GG's prophecy, Keith Olbermann offered criminal prosecution as warrantless wiretapping's extra inning -- that the bill insulates TelCos from civil liability, but *gasp* leaves open the door for criminal prosecution -- a revelation derived via the painstaking legal investigation of John Dean and the ACLU.

Here's the nut: He forthrightly addressed the possibility of presidential pardon by citing John Dean...

"[It] would require acceptance by them of the fact hey had broken the law and thus be an admission of guilt. And a blanket pardon would be an admission by Bush that his war on terror has been a lawless undertaking, operating beyond the bounds of the Constitution and the statutes that check the powers of the president and the executive branch. It would be an admission by Bush too, of his own criminal culpability (which is why Nixon refused to grant his aides a pardon)."

Before I break down this vapid reasoning, it should be pointed-out that Olbermann has finally woken from the compromise coma, he was just short of unequivocal in condemning the bill, unequivocal save for it's criminal 'poison pill.'

1. Pardons are delivered after November, at Christmas. There is no political price for outgoing pardons (well, other than your wife hearing about Mark Rich some eight years on). Ford didn't have the Christmas luxury.

2. "...blanket pardon would be an admission..." is not legally relevant. A pardon has the same or less evidentiary weight as asserting the fifth amendment. One can infer that something incriminating was perpetrated but it establishes no facts. I suppose it will serve to shame a president who will leave office with a 70%+ disapproval rating.

3. "Terrorist Surveillance Program" - one of the most deft political reversals in history (no hyperbole here, it should be studied for all time). NYT prints a story about illegal eavesdropping, a story the administration was desperate to quash, a brief period of real outcry ensues followed by a nationwide tour by the President touting his "Terrorist Surveillance Program." Flash-forward to now: the re-framing of warrantless wiretapping is so complete that we actually speak of the "good faith" and "patriotic" actions of the TelCos. Why would there be any public reaction to absolving these people criminally?

4. Indict the President - I guess this is what Keith is after. Well get in line, Kucinich provided 35 high crimes and misdemeanors and claims more in tow.

On a positive note, Obama could promise and deliver one thing noble as president: sunshine, a truth and reconciliation commission, a grand inquest. And use his eloquence to elevate it above a witch-hunt, make it about good governance. Use its findings as the basis for a new Church Committee.