Re: "I have, in all my time on these letter boards, not seen a single instance of the starry-eyed Obama worship that you are all railing against."

ROFLMAO

I knew when I read your post I had done a terrible job (as usual) of communicating my point.

Does anyone think that it will be good... if people ACCUSED OF BEING TERRORISTS, convicted in a court of law BASED ON "EVIDENCE" GATHERED UNDER TORTURE, are freed by a supreme court ruling?

Yes. I do.

I agree with you 10000% and I would want the court to rule that way also. The fault in my scenario does not lie with the Court but with the legislature and the executive, or just the legislature depending on the circumstances.

If we are going end rendition, torture, "illegal combatants" and gitmo by bringing the "war on terror" under the law, we have to make sure we are operating under the constitution or there will be great pressure to pull terror suspects back out of the judicial system if those laws were declared unconstitutional.

The FISA surveillance bill is one of the cornerstones of bringing the "war on terror" under the rule of law because the FISA updates will make the evidence gathered though surveillance legal. If the Supreme Court declared the FISA updates unconstitutional, which I believe they rightly should, then this whole system falls apart.

The problem lies with the passing of unconstitutional laws, not with the supreme courts declaration that those laws are unconstitutional. Now throwing shit at the constitution and seeing what will stick after the supreme court cleans it up is a favorite pastime of congress. Just look at flag burning and internet censorship laws.

My point is that this is a very dangerous time constitutionally to be playing that game. If bringing the "war on terror" under the law fails because of badly written legislation, my fear is the population will blame the courts and the constitution, not the legislature.

Trying to think of constructive ways to respond to this travesty. The majority of the Democratic caucus voted agains the FISA "compromise." Accordingly, wouldn't it make sense for those of us who reside in the districts of those who voted no to pressure our representatives to remove Hoyer and replace him with someone who more closely reflects the will of the caucus? It seems to me that most representatives would be afraid to lauch such a challenge unless assured of the participation of others to ensure success. If we can build a grassroots movement to exert pressure in each district and can keep each other, and the representatives' staff advised of the campaign, that could make a difference. We can't wait until the next election to punish Hoyer. I know of the leadership, Larson (CT) and Lewis (GA) voted nay on the bill and could be suitable replacements for Hoyer.

My previous

I'd encourage everyone to follow your link in support your "GG 'race-boated'" [your term] HRC.

was missing an "of" and an "allegation". But you get the gist, I'm sure.

A cursory reading of it shows that the FISA 'compromise' bill is terrible law. It is more of the, "I'm so frightened I'll tear up ever more pieces of the Constitution in order to be safe". It is exactly what we have had for the last 7 miserable years from both Republicans and Democrats. Senator Obama represents the hope for change so that people of courage will stand up against this cowardly attitude. He has repeatedly said that he would fight against just such an infringement of our Constitution as this FISA bill most assuredly is. The news is not good though. Early word has it that Senator Obama stands essentially in support of this bill except for the telecomm amnesty provisions.

He has said he will filibuster those provisions. Will he do so? This is his chance to do what he has said he would. Not next week, not when he is President, now. This is his moment in history to create real change. The question is whether he has the courage and foresight to act now.

Should he acquiesce and not fight, or even be completely ineffective, and his action will do a great deal to completely waste the faith of millions of progressives such as myself, people who have been inspired by his words and actions in the past and who have given freely of their time and often limited resources because he represents such a strong beacon of hope for the future. If Senator Obama fails to fight this with all his leadership and forcefulness, if he just signs off on such a tragically flawed bill, then how can someone like me begin to argue with someone who thinks he is just a normal politician who talks a great campaign, but when push comes to shove, when the chips are down, folds his tents, just as nearly every other sorry politician has in the recent past in the United States.

This is his first great historical moment. Please tell him my fervent hope that he does the right thing and defeat not only the provisions discussing the telecomm whitewash, but the many other tragically flawed parts of this bill. By fighting this he will reinforce for his supporters just why they have given so much to elect him because he represents real hope. He will also spike his detractors who say that he is nothing more than empty words, that he doesn't really stand for much of anything. This is his time to conquer magnificently or sputter into near irrelevance.

I'm sending him my best thoughts and energies so that he do the right thing for this, our United States.

The answer is so obvious. Follow Glenn's lead and approach and put your money where your mouth is as I have done and donate to the cause with as much as you can afford.

The answer is not to mistakenly elect another McWar when you are trying to send a message that will only explode in your and other people's faces.

The other choice that I have made is to put your time and money into helping a congressional candidate in your district get elected in a long time red district and then hold that candidate's feet to the fire if he starts to stray after getting elected.

The answer is not to do what I had been doing, sitting on my ass and bitching at the TV.

I attended a county Dem meeting this morning. What are you doing in the local politics arena?