I can understand your saying he has lost my volunteer and/or financial support. I don't understand saying "Lost my vote." When you give up your vote, you either lose your voice or help America on the downward path to disaster. Why do you want to do that?

at this point, I consider myself a 2010 Democrat.

If the choice in November is Obama or McCain, its really just a question of which ditch you drive your car into -- the one on the left, or the one on the right? Bush is going to leave a massive mess to whoever takes over the oval office 2009 -- and neither McCain nor Obama is going to deal with that mess effectively.

....and the american people are going to blame those in power for NOT cleaning up Bush's mess.

If Obama is in the oval office, with the likes of Pelosi and Reid running Congress, the Democratic Party is going to be completely discredited -- and in 2010 the Dems will lose tons of house seats, and a number of senate seats. And in 2012, the GOP will win the White House, and probably gain control of both houses of congress -- and keep it for at least eight years because the Democratic Party will be utterly discredited.

If McCain is President, a LOT of the blame will continue to fall on the GOP (especially if he continues Bush's policies). Democrats in congress will be able to prevent the worst of McCain's impulses from achieving fruition -- and at worst the Dems will lose a few seats in the house, and one or two Senate seats in 2010 -- and in 2012 COMPETENT Democratic leadership can (hopefully) takeover the white house.

What I think Obots fear the most is that McCain WON'T be a disaster -- that once in office, he'll govern as a pragmatic centrist with a slightly rightish tilt.

Either way, if the choice is Obama or McCain, IMHO the best bet for the country is a McCain presidency. If he is as evil as the enablers of the craven and corrupt Democratic Party Leadership and fellow travelers like Greenwald would have us believe, the Democratic majority in congress can thwart his worst impulses, and Democrats can win in 2012. If it turns out that McCain governs as a pragmatic centrists (as would Clinton), then the nation will be better off.

Bottom line is that a McCain presidency can ONLY be as bad as Greenwald wants us to believe it will be if the Democratic Leadership is as venal and corrupt as Greenwald wants us to believe that McCain is. If that's the case, then we're screwed for the next four years regardless of who wins if the choice is Obama or McCain....and the smart thing to do is vote with an eye on 2010 and 2012

Suddenly Obama is the Godfather?

I'd like to know more.

-- Baldie McEagle

The minute Hillary ackowledged he was the nominee. That does not give him dictatorial powers now, but he is the titular head of the party. It is his party. Politics and internecine politicking does not stop, but you won't see it done in public, like Hillary coming out and making statements not in line with the Obama message and directions. Okay, now that is all.

Let's call the whole thing off.

I sent an e-mail to what I thought was the Democratic leader in the House, Nancy Pelosi, castigating her for her craven submission. For what later issue on what later day are we waiting to fight that justifies running away today?

I tried sending e-mails to Obama but keep getting back meaningless form-letters. I guess any contributions are better sent to the group you suggest or straight to the ACLU. Time to join them, I guess. Belonging to the Democratic party isn't working out so well after 39 years of, yes, unquestioning loyalty. While there is no discernible good from electing McCain the Flip Flop Artist Extrordinare, any good from Obama is rapidly shrinking. It looks like an election to sit out. Then I can avoid any blame - just like these people.

If the Constitution if not worth fighting for then just what is?

We are no longer the Land of the Free nor the Home of the Brave.

Play Ball!

I want a show of hands of how many here actually read the original FISA bill, and all of its amendments? Not just read a pundit's interpretation of it.

Note that Obama voted against the last amendment.

FISA was already far reaching. Its purpose is to balance national security with privacy. It was enacted in 1978. It was imperfect then, and it is imperfect with or without this amendment. The amendment takes one step forward and two steps back. It expands that limbo like time frame between engaging in the surveillance and applying to the FISA court. But, note that provision was already in place. The Act and its enforcement was already flawed.

At least this amendment calls for further oversight. Whether that will be meaningful or not is questionable, but not implausible.

Bush et. al. decided they did not need to live within it's authority and parameters. That's what made the wire tapping illegal. They were asserting a right under executive power.

Congress has now at least sent a message that FISA constitutes the sole authority to conduct electronic surveillance. It makes it patently clear what the president is authorized and is not authorized to do and if he or she goes outside the paramaters it would be an impeachable offense. It is possible that the Democrats could do some more tinkering and reign back powers. Possible. I won't hold my breath, but they are more likely to do it than Republicans if they don't face a veto from the white house.

Obama was hardly glowing in his endorsement of the bill. He's against the immunity provision. There is a conflict there. You can see it in his statement. He's not happy to have been forced into this at this time when he is trying not to give the GOP any soft on terrorism weapons against him. Yes. The Democrats are complicit here, as they were with the War on Iraq. But remember, we live in a country where independent and moderate voters are suseptible to that little black dress of terrorism. Yes. He is taking progressive voters for granted here. Where else are we going to go? And yes, he is helping other Democrats cya on these issues. But: Welcome to the real world. He needs the party. He needs a shot at those swing voters who will be hearing over and over again how he can't protect us from terrorism.

Vent all you want. Vent against the motherfuckers who attacked us on 9/11 and opened the door for all this shit.

Vent about Bush, the Republicans and McCain. They aren't the least bit conflicted about any unconstitutional expansion of power. How many Republicans voted against it?

Vent about the the stupidity of the American voters who don't get this stuff and didn't flood congress with their opposition.

Vent about Obama. He caved. Just make sure you vote for him anyway. He's the best chance we've got and for every cave in, there's a stand where he didn't cave in.