Let's hope the d's are smarter than the average bear. Hasn't been teh first time he chose covering his people's as* over the american people. Let's show teh world what these fascsits are about. If the spineless senate dem's have brain, they will do it and put the onance on bush.

"If the Senate were to prevail in removing telecom immunity from the current bill, then it would function as a poison pill, and my money says Bush would veto it.

If the Senate is successful in moving the telecom immunity provision into a separate bill ... then, maybe, it buys some time.

Am I hopelessly over the edge?

-- bystander "

As I posted earlier, the contents of the FISA bill are opposed by large majorities across party lines, including warrantless wiretaps and telecom immunity. That opposition INCREASES when you present voters with strong arguments from both sides.

These are the results of an ACLU poll conducted by Mark Mellman, pollster for Hoyer, Barrow, and Reid among many others.

We know that.

Paul Dirks apparently doesn't know that.

I look forward to the day when Antonin Scalia explains to us how this grotesque abrogation of our liberties is exactly what the Founding Pussies had in mind all those years ago.

Yeah it is a positively revolutionary act to continue to bang one's head against the wall by voting and hoping for more and better democrats.

Your satirical statement reflects the exact point I was trying to make. Why keep trying to change things?

Look at the evidence. It's clear that mass political action has no effect on Washington. For example, earlier this year, just as Congress was set to slide its telecom amnesty bill along, what came along? A useless and futile mass movement that raised money, threatened to topple conservative Democrats in the primaries, and draw attention to the issue.

Clearly it was an utterly useless effort.

And now, here are these supposed calls for people to contribute talent, money, time and energy to apply further pressure on members Congress. Also doomed to failure!

Far better to sit back and chuckle complacently in the fact of this outbreak of useless effort and inability to accomplish any goals.

Some Obamabots int he War Room are saying "well, he is against the controversial part..." my response was `The retroactive immunity wasn't THE controversial part, it was just the "rub your face in monkey manure you total cowards" part.'

For those of us who HOPEd, but did not really expect, that Obama really would, on principle, fulfill his oath to defend our Constitutional rights, this is simply his declaration that, just like many if not most other Democrats and just about all Republicans, principle will always come second to political expediency.

And, really, the primary process showed that presidential candidates who stand on principle, the Kucinichs, Dodds, and Pauls of the world, stay in the single digit realm at the poll booth. Remember, politicians are primarily experts at getting elected and staying in power. Obama is a damn good politician and his goal right now, first and foremost, is to win the election. We can still HOPE that, if he does gain power, that, on the whole, he will use more than abuse it.

Still, he is better than the opposition. But, if you had any HOPEs that this guy was something more noble and pure than any other wily politician, well, I think we just found out the answer.

No reason not to vote for him in the fall though, because even though he won't stand up to evil, at least he doesn't seem to actively promote it. And, it would be nice to again have a president who can put together a coherent sentence and who maybe has a chance of at least understanding the issues of the world. After all, as he always says, his candidacy is about HOPE, not realistic expectations.

military people always think you hate the military because you call them an asshole, as they they are one hive mind. And then they wonder why we consider them just a little brainwashed.

One could conclude based on the political cowardice and truly debased conduct the Congressional DC DEMs have demonstrated since November 2006 DEM election upswing and with todays fully spineless show of no valid public interest voting there must be something buried somewhere. A truly odorous complicity somewhere along this telecom snoop and peep trail that the DC DEMs had a hand in and direct links to and now must run from.

The Decider when viewed earlier today on one of Americas best propaganda "news" cable channels surely had a noticeable smirk showing to one side of his mouth. What does he know we do not(as yet anyway)? Was it about this DC DEM cave-in or that Israeli "attack demo" showcasing American F-16 fighter jets and other American supplied human killing wartoys? Surely the peoples of the Middle East and parts east know full well who is backing the Israeli gunslingers as Israel careens around Middle East sacking and laying to ruin Lebanon and likely Iran now too.

Barack Obama should be more mindful and careful of how cavalier he chooses to be with the idealism and enthusiasim of his core backers and supporters.

Is it really going to be "Yes-we can" Barack or is it going to be "Maybe-depends-principles?what about em'?

As for the current DC DEM roster of "leadership" in Congress the smell from this political/constitutional debacle is damn high.

Just what the hell did the DC DEMs knowingly sign onto or let Bush/Cheney regime run with despite clear risks of doing so?

SOME military people.

Let's hope the d's are smarter than the average bear. Hasn't been teh first time he chose covering his people's as* over the american people. Let's show teh world what these fascsits are about. If the spineless senate dem's have brain, they will do it and put the onance on bush.

"If the Senate were to prevail in removing telecom immunity from the current bill, then it would function as a poison pill, and my money says Bush would veto it.

If the Senate is successful in moving the telecom immunity provision into a separate bill ... then, maybe, it buys some time.

Am I hopelessly over the edge?

-- bystander

If the Senate takes the immunity out then it has to go back to the House (or a conference committee (think back room, no lights)) because it's not the same bill. IF the senate does take immunity out of the piece of shit, it will be a while before Bush can have another one 'produced' by the house.

At this point, if I remember my government classes, the senate either 'fish's or cuts bait'. They either pass the bill as-is or they take out the knives. One way and we could have a 'law' in days, the other and it'll start stinking like a bait shop with no air conditioning pretty quick...