We could take it a step further and note how the Republican's blocking universal health care has likely contributed (if not outrightly caused) the death of uncounted American citizens of all age groups over the last two decades.

Thanks to the concept of original sin, none of the already born are completely innocent.

Therefore Republican blocking of single payer health care does not cause the death of innocents.

and was working on developing my political and religious views one of the things I did was sit down and read the New Testatament confining my attention to the four Gospels figurung that they were the closest thing I could find to 'source' material.

What I saw astounded me. The amount of energy that is spent condemning hypocrisy and, more importantly, false piety based on strict adherence to doctrine rather than the common sense kindness to our fellow travelers is boggling especially when you consider how much the very attitudes that Jesus railed against have become reincorporated into our Religious institutions.

I give the Vatican credit for being more consistent about life issues than the Right here in America, but anyone who considers abortion a more grave evil than launching a war of aggresion has carefully avoided thinking about the nature of suffering.

"Thanks to the concept of original sin, none of the already born are completely innocent."

So by this reasoning, at least abortions give a direct pass to the unborn (innocent) to heaven.

How depressing to think that many believe a newborn is guilty of original sin...or that the 2 year old child shown in the picture is not innocent, and because of his parent's faith, not even deserving of heaven.

Things become so much clearer once someone explains that the important thing to take away from the story is that it's okay that the nuns were denied the right to vote because they might have been voting for the wrong party.

"deaths via abortion"- doesn't account for all the illegal abortions that would take place regardless of Roe v. Wade decision- and the subsequent deaths of the mothers from taking unsafe abortions. Plus that was over 30 years ago, compared to 5 years in Iraq.

that's using "logic."

Did Jesus ever use the word "logic" anywhere in the New Testament? Uh-uh.

So Catholics can safely ignore its conclusions.

Therefore Republican blocking of single payer health care does not cause the death of innocents.

I was referring to deaths that access to decent medical care might have otherwise prevented. Despite my being born, baptisied and raised Roman Catholic, the doctrine of "Original Sin" is one of the first things I jettisoned when I quit the Church.

Hence hairsplitting over what is or isn't 'innocent life' merely tells me you don't care either way.

anyone who considers abortion a more grave evil than launching a war of aggresion has carefully avoided thinking about the nature of suffering.

I think you've just explained a sizable chunk of the leadership of the conservative movement and its mouthpieces, not one of whom I can recall having actually suffered anything more traumatic than the occasional tax audit.

The amount of energy that is spent condemning hypocrisy and, more importantly, false piety based on strict adherence to doctrine rather than the common sense kindness to our fellow travelers is boggling especially when you consider how much the very attitudes that Jesus railed against have become reincorporated into our Religious institutions.

The mistake you make was to read the Bible without someone to "explain" it to you. Given the right tutelage, all of the inconsistencies between the red words and religion as actually practiced are handily sewn up in bag make of the very strongest self justification.

You see, our God would not provide a guidebook that could be understood by a normal person using their own powers of observation and deduction, that would eliminate the need for spiritual guides and what God in His right mind would countenance such a thing?

The simple things you see are all complicated.

but anyone who considers abortion a more grave evil than launching a war of aggresion has carefully avoided thinking about the nature of suffering.

And furthermore, he/she hasn't read the New Testament. I'm an atheist who spent a lot of time in (a Presbyterian) church as a kid, and while I mostly read Revelations during the sermon, I probably know as much about it as the average self-identified Christian.

And it truly stumps me when fundamental Baptists (for example) seem to pay more attention to TV preachers, and their interpretations and accretions, than to the Bible they are supposed to follow. Or they let others interpret it for them, which is no different from having priests in the way between you and Jesus, which is what the Reformation was ostensibly about.

The Catholic Church has a built-in analogy in the form of the Pope. When did Jesus say, Thou shalt follow the man in the funny hat? But at least they are supposed to be specialists in the suffering department. When did the meaning of Suffer the little children change?

Hence hairsplitting over what is or isn't 'innocent life' merely tells me you don't care either way.

I'm a long term atheist, I don't believe that bullshit for a femtosecond.

But I have a good idea how many religious people "think".

I think it would be wise to keep in mind that we're talking about the American Catholics and not Catholics in general. While I can't speak for any other strain, I do find that the Canadian brand of Catholicism is alot less incendiary than the American one. At the various churches I've been to throughout my life homilies have been largely tame stuff - treat your neighbour well, put your faith in the Lord, etc etc. The few times I've been to American Catholic churches (and yes, my sample size is obscenely small...about a dozen times in MA and NY and FL) it seems the priests are using the homilies to rail against social wedge issues like teh gays and abortion. It was actually quite jarring the first time I heard it (what with the fact that I normally zone in and out of homilies ;)

My feeling is that there's some "keeping up with the jonses" going on in the US Catholic Church - in order to stay relevant they have to keep pace with the stridency of the more vocal protestant churches.

I dunno...I could be way off, but that's how it's felt to me - Catholicism in America is way more politicized than in Canada, and it has led to a caricaturization of what it means to be a Catholic - no gays, no abortions, and that's pretty much it.