I'm not hooked on DOOM like you folks. You people are the modern day analog for the American religious movements of the 1830's that were convinced the world was coming to an end on a specific date in the near near future.

Probably get them $2 a pop from China. Just leave 10 million behind in Iraq and wait for them all to do what they do best.

No, I do not mean to entirely conflate you or LWM with avowed sociopaths Shooter and ProWar, however to point out, perhaps, that I am far left of the four of your stances about intervention (and probably even left of Greenwald in this case).

Consensus gives weight to authority, and authority in killing must be absolute or close to it. That is why I oppose the death penalty, making me more pro-life than many Republicans.

So, consensus must inform these interventions, and we have the UN, a body whose authority should be augmented. Its an imperfect body, and reforms need to be made. But, one man, or six men, or even just one nation cannot unilaterally decide to attack another.

Without consensus, authority, sovereignty, debate and compassion we are, quite literally, hairless apes.

So, I don't know the answer to your question, other than to say, "we blew it, we need to do better next time." I'll sit back and wait for Shooter to call me a communist (fair is fair, I called him a sociopath).

It's a sign from God....

In the Kentucky Derby, Big Brown comes in first, Eight Belles comes in second but breaks both fore ankles and has to be put down.

It doesn't come much clearer than that.

-shooter242

So.......God likes UPS?

Obama over Clinton?

Hillary's going to be "put down"?

"It" may not come much clearer, but "it" should, so we know wtf you're talking about shooter. ;)

Hostages

http://arabwomanblues.blogspot.com/

is not what we should do about them, but what we should do about us.

Let us first remove the mass murderers, torturers, and lawbreakers from positions of power in our own government.

Human rights abuses in Rwanda, in Darfur, in Congo, in Burma? Oh, yes, they break my heart.

But Iraq breaks my heart even more because people pretending to represent ME, an American, are responsible for it. The government that's supposed to be "of the people blah blah blah" is killing, maiming, and torturing innocent people. Perhaps every once in a while they pick someone up who's not innocent--that's supposed to make it all okay, but somehow, it just doesn't.

The very idea that America has some responsibility to right the wrongs of the world is rooted in a fantasy of America's special God-given moral superiority that can trace its ideological roots back to nasty ideas like Manifest Destiny and the White Man's Burden.

There is no moral imperative to go out and "bring a better way of life" to the ungrateful savages out there. The imperative to project American military force abroad is venal and power-hungry in nature. It is the imperative of Empire.

Unlike Electro, who so aptly illustrated my observation that he doesn't do nuance, I don't blame Americans in general for the tragic farce that masquerades as "American" foreign policy, but nor will I let them entirely off the hook. Great forces and powers are arrayed against our understanding the true nature of the enemies in our ruling class--I would say the enemies who have infiltrated our ruling class, but I rather suspect they've been there, in varying proportions, all along.

The reality is that America has done some morally despicable things, just like every empire does. I like the idea of America, sort of like I like the idea of a house that exists only in blueprints up til now. But right now, the reality of America is something that tortures my sense of right and wrong every time I tune into the news. So let's not worry about the Burmese and the Congolese and whoever else is struggling out these, before we tame our own demons, clean up our mess, and end this nightmare.

"Even if I have to kill every last one of 'em to do it"

Signed,

Little George

PS: I'm a War President

Why are these men not in prison awaiting execution for War Crimes and Treason???

Oh, that's right,....the Rule of Law and Constitution are off the table.......my bad....

LWM wrote: "I'm trying to think of successful rebellions, revolts and regime changes that have not involved some form of outside assistance, intervention or interference."

I think I'd largely agree with your assumption that purely homegrown, successful regime changes/revolutions aren't typical. Depending upon how purist you want to be about "some form of outside assistance, intervention or assistance" there are some noteworthy examples: The French Revolution, The Russian Revolution, Spanish post-Franco democratization, the Chilean ouster of Pinochet etc. (I suspect, but don't know for sure that semi-revolutionary regime changes in Argentina, Ecuador, Peru, Venezuela etc. might also apply.)

Perhaps the most significant examples in recent times though have been the homegrown People Power ouster of the tyrannical Marcos regime in the Philipines, and the peaceful, homegrown and enormously successful democratization of Indonesia, after decades of the brutal, genocidal Soeharto dictatorship.

The latter was achieved, nearly bloodlessly, in the world's most populous Islamic nation (pop: >220 million) with enormous ethnic diversity, over a geographically vast archipelago. Its democratization was also achieved (quickly, successfully, peacefully) during roughly the same period (2001-2005) that external attempts at democratising Iraq were proving so bloody and difficult. Interestingly, many of the reasons posited for that bloody difficulty in Iraq (decades of brutal dictatorship, intrinsically un-democratic nature of Islamic societies, longstanding ethnic diversity & tensions etc.) were not only also existent in Indonesia, they were exacerbated by a population almost ten times as large & over a far vaster geographic area than Iraq. I was a frequent visitor during the period of transition and the only significant "outside assistance" the Indonesians received for their quiet revolution was the low-key, hugely professional presence of election observers from the UN, EU & Australia.

As an example of revolutionary regime change & successful democratization, the entirely "homegrown" Indonesian model has a great deal to recommend it.