Did you know that the last man involved in the plot to kill Hitler died today?

Yeah, I heard that.

All the whiners here have about 0.04% of the guts that takes compared to their blogging outrage, nitpicking and other assorted mental defects.

You do as much whining and nitpicking as anyone.

I've never said that Iraq is a quagmire. It's a quagmire only for those who don't really want to leave, but can't see a way to win or have "peace with honor", as an earlier war criminal put it.

And it is physically and logistically possible to have every USG person out of Iraq within six to eight weeks. The overwhelming desire of the Iraqi people is for the US to be gone. If the US announced it was pulling out, then there'd be flowers and candy thrown at our departing feet. We're not going to have to fight our way to the borders. There are US ships aplenty in the Gulf that can be tasked for evacuation (yet another carrier group is on the way to threaten Iran and can be also re-tasked) and airlifts can be organized out of Baghdad, Kuwait, and the various air bases we've installed. We'll have to abandon a lot of stuff, but so what?

I should have said that the only legitimate role of the US in Iraq will be reparations, etc. I don't expect it to happen, nor do I expect the criminals responsible to be surrendered. One can hope they travel to a country willing to hold them for trial, or that one way or another justice finds them. I won't hold my breath, but I really do hope they live in fear of retribution for as long as they live.

The Allies evacuated 338,000 men from Dunkirk between May 27 and June 4, 1940 under conditions almost infinitely worse than we face in Iraq today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dunkirk

Leaving Iraq can be done in weeks, it wouldn't be pretty but it would be doable. Frankly, a lot of the equipment we would be abandoning is worn out anyway, there are square miles of military equipment in dire need of refurbishing already in Army depots in the US..

It's not a quagmire because we *can't* leave, it's a quagmire because we *won't* leave.

Oh, what I wouldn't give to be smelling the cedars there! You made me homesick. Say hello to the mountains for me, if they're out.

Last nite I rented Hotel Rwanda, and assuming it is basically accurate, a genocide of 1 million Africans occurred even as the country waited urgently for the West to send in UN troops. When an atrocity is brought starkly home to one, as that film does, it is hard to say those with the capacity to do something about it should refrain. But then what? Stay and occupy for decades? And where to draw the line, given that large-scale atrocities are a regular feature of human societies?

I do not know the answer. But I do know that Iraq is a violent nightmare now, and we are the cause. That little boy's body should be all over CNN, MSNBC and *cough* Fox.

Glen - you fail to grasp the "hold" component of the surge strategy.

Air strikes can never provide this.

This is the unstated NeoCon logic.

is a global surge. It's all clear now.

Out in days, just like we went in. Now, I for one agree with Phillip Allen. That's why my first choice was Gravel, then Kucinich, then Dodd, and you know the rest.

Obama won't be out of Iraq any time soon, I know that, I'm not stupid. But he won't be in Syria and Iran too, like American Likudists Clinton and McCain (who will, maybe for kicks, re-invade Vietnam just out of spite).

As per, let's see, Mona, to some extent LWM, Shooter, ProWar.. Iraq is war for oil, primarily. Its other things (a proxy war of Israel's choosing, a war industry boondoggle, a glory grab, proving to your dad that you are tougher by winning a second term, etc). It is, however, not Dafur or Somalia or Burma or China or wherever there are legitimate human rights atrocities (Gitmo?). So, there goes the argument that Iraq was in any way an act of altruism.

The "coalition of the willing" were bribed and cajoled (and perhaps a little bit extorted). This war was started with absolutely no authority that I recognize entirely. We need to get out, now.

I'm 1 billion percent with you.

Did you know that the last man involved in the plot to kill Hitler died today?

_________________________________

I think that the most important part of the story is that to the moment of his last breath, that man was refining and perfecting that plot.

Being a member of the military does not define one as being a warmonger. But you avoid the issue I bring up. That is, Salon.com rails against Bush & Co., but nary a word is said of taking dollars from the Pentagon.

Now, we can discuss how altruism of the Pentagon, but generally speaking it is filled with war mongering thugs and those that see no problem with carpet bombing a nation that never, ever threatened the United States. Despite your claim that the military has been "cleansed," the current state of affairs indicates otherwise. It's business as usual.

Your third paragraph is nonsensical. As such, all of your arguments are hamstrung, impotent and irrelevant.

In the Kentucky Derby, Big Brown comes in first, Eight Belles comes in second but breaks both fore ankles and has to be put down.

It doesn't come much clearer than that.

Incredibly interesting response. I never imagined "limiting your ideas reach" was at issue. I stand corrected. However, the "more power to them" is exactly what I worry about. Them having more power is indeed the fight worth fighting. And it's hard to know who's pulling who's levers in this day and age. Thanks for your response. It's the most thought provoking I've received on the subject.