In the line of Mr. Timberman's thought, I will always remember how we belittled the French. How dare they try to tell us what to do!!!! And that mouth-breather garbage about "Freedom Fries" in the Capitol cafeteria.

And then I read the story of the Sicilian Vespers and the lessons that they learned first hand about being occupiers in a place where they weren't wanted, and were finally eradicated in a very bloody action by the Sicilians and their "private parts" were cut from their bodies and placed in a hogshead of vinegar and sent to the King in Paris.

CAN I GET A "HELL YEAH"??

They're not just a million monkeys! They're those damned SURRENDER MONKEYS! (Just like the damned French!)......

What you say makes eminently good sense. I look forward to the rest of it.

WT: Given what's happened since, and what these people have said about it themselves, there really is no excuse now to persist in such a mistake, unless you're absolutely determined to.

People like rocket999 should be required to read the entire transcript of the Nuremberg Tribunal. They certainly wouldn't get anything out of reading Thucydides' account of the Athenian invasion of Syracuse.

Murphy and I are old .. well. not exactly *friends*..

There are actually a number of laws which Murphy has authored.

1. Nothing is as easy as it looks.

2. Everything takes longer than you think.

3. Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.

4. If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong. Corollary: If there is a worse time for something to go wrong, it will happen then.

5. If anything simply cannot go wrong, it will anyway.

6. If you perceive that there are four possible ways in which a procedure can go wrong, and circumvent these, then a fifth way, unprepared for, will promptly develop.

7. Left to themselves, things tend to go from bad to worse.

8. If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.

9. Nature always sides with the hidden flaw.

10. Mother nature is a bitch.

11. It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

12. Whenever you set out to do something, something else must be done first.

13. Every solution breeds new problems.

O'Toole's Commentary

Murphy was an optimist.

Murphy's Military Laws

1. Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than you are.

2. No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy.

3. Friendly fire ain't.

4. The most dangerous thing in the combat zone is an officer with a map.

5. The problem with taking the easy way out is that the enemy has already mined it.

6. The buddy system is essential to your survival; it gives the enemy somebody else to shoot at.

7. The further you are in advance of your own positions, the more likely your artillery will shoot short.

8. Incoming fire has the right of way.

9. If your advance is going well, you are walking into an ambush.

10. The quartermaster has only two sizes, too large and too small.

11. If you really need an officer in a hurry, take a nap.

12. The only time suppressive fire works is when it is used on abandoned positions.

13. The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

14. There is nothing more satisfying that having someone take a shot at you, and miss.

15. Don't be conspicuous. In the combat zone, it draws fire. Out of the combat zone, it draws sergeants.

16. If your sergeant can see you, so can the enemy.

Naval aviation has another one:

If an aircraft part can be installed incorrectly, someone will install it that way.

what would it take to stop treating adolescents like vermin?

DON'T EXPOSE THEM TO TELEVISION. It smothers creativity. Raise them with books. Make them create things and teach them to reason for themselves.

What would modern rites of passage look like?

Creating some major work of art or scholarship, or writing a novel or thesis. Or maybe a really kick-ass rock and roll band.

Where might we find the modern equivalent of the apprenticeship system?

Does it matter? Anyone with a good PC, connected to the Web has the chance to become ANYTHING. No limits, No Horizons.....

I will always remember how we belittled the French. How dare they try to tell us what to do!!!! And that mouth-breather garbage about "Freedom Fries" in the Capitol cafeteria.

It was easily one of the dumbest, most hateful times in modern American history. For me, every day was like living in some bizzarro universe where all reason dissolved in a nightmarish convulsion of tribalism and blind vengeance, covered in a slick veneer of CNN graphics and explanations of the power of the military's newest, coolest weapon, and how the Good Guys would sweep across the Risk map in a clean, swift affirmation of our infinite righteousness.

Anyone with a good PC, connected to the Web has the chance to become ANYTHING. -- Tomhere

Isn't it reasonable to expect -- even to demand -- that we not rely solely on chance to provide for us?

part of what i tried to do with my kids, but didn't have the full resources of a society to do it (to address you invitation to dream of a utopia) was somewhat in line with Aych's hint: to let them develop in ways natural to them to discover what their type of intelligence was (for all intelligence is not measured by the ability to deal with analytical problems under pressure). And to fit it in with the real rythym of children, who need play and freedom as much as other things. Logic, art, music, dance, first aid, meditation, interpersonal skills: think of the things we could develop in our children across the years with all the time and resources we have. What if elementary school teachers were one of the most prized professions in our society? What if the lower the "grade" (awful term:we would ditch that too: children develop at different rates) the higher the teacher qualification would be? And another poster said something grand: what if each rite of passage was tailored to the type of intelligence and stage of development of each individual? Some would make music, some would write, some would dance, some would just be damn fine integrated peaceful souls, some would climb mountains.

Ah, William: you've set me off dreaming.