Making prostitution illegal as a way to fight some unfortunate outgrowths like sex-slavery assumes two basic things:

1. Laws against sex-slavery are not enough to do the job.

2. Laws are justifiable due to social engineering benefits even when the offense itself is not inherently harmful.

I don't think many people here are arguing that two entirely consenting people with plenty of freedom of choice having sex, with one being paid, is something the law should be concerned with in itself. It always comes down to that prostitution leads to other abuses, that it creates a certain negative culture, etc. Same argument as the one against pornography.

Personally I'm not a big fan of using criminal law to perform social engineering and nebulously benefit society when the behavior in question is not itself criminal.

I suppose there is an opposing realpolitik view though.

Of course this sort of thinking naturally raises another question: if the real problem is things like sex-slavery and forced prostitution why don't we put some effort into figuring out the best way to combat those directly, instead of assuming prostitution laws are a good strategy?

It's a common mistake I see in engineering all the time: proposing a solution before diagnosing the problem. Perhaps making prostitution legal would combat these problems more effectively, or perhaps something wholly unexpected is the best remedy.

Is there any reason to believe that prostitution laws are an effective remedy to sex slavery and forced prostitution, other than wishful thinking?

@Aycharich <<Which is why I despise conservatives and no longer consider myself a liberal after a lifetime of self identifying that way.

The liberal failure to face up to what they have wrought in the drug war, even here on this blog, has made me even more cynical than I was.. Something I didn't really think was possible a few years ago.>>

I believe I understand what you mean. My views may differ from yours (I don't know), but for me certain liberals and most conservatives often are just two sides of the same idea, controlling other people's lives. The conservative side wants to control your personal life, and liberals want to control your money. None seem to question the very idea that any aspect of one's life should be controlled by others. I tend to not go for cynicism, since that implies no solutions are possible. Recognition of the value of true rationality in all aspects of one's life would eliminate many of today's problems. So, with that, I have a certain viewpoint about politics, I'd like the democrats to win so decisively that the republican party as it exists today is wiped out. Then, I'd like to see a rational party take their place, and then our country could make true progress. But first, as I see it, the republican party is a full-on danger to the country as they are now, far more dangerous than the democrats at this time.

--Ron

I'm not sure it's the ultimate denial of individual freedom, I thought that was when we had the draft.

Under the right circumstances and justly implemented the draft is capable of serving a legitimate societal purpose..

The drug war has no such fig leaf, it is about repression of those who differ from the norm and really very little more.

Oh, there are some ancillary purposes, corporate profits, jobs programs for police, judges, lawyers, etc.. fodder for political grandstanding and so on..

I'm a self taught troubleshooter, I deal with reality on a daily basis at a level where if I do not correctly analyze the problem I don't make a living. I find the great majority of people I come in contact with to be not very good at thinking things through in a logical manner, even people who have jobs far more well compensated than what I do.

I used to be surprised that a lot of the manual labor types I tend to be around a good bit of the time seem more in touch with reality than those with more high powered jobs, but I have come to realize that when one does manual labor it is impossible to ignore reality. Many more high powered jobs are at a sufficient level of abstraction that job performance is hard to accurately evaluate.. They get away with bafflegab and bullshit a lot of the time.

You can't bullshit a tape measure and a circular saw, a cut is either right or it is wrong and no amount of talk will make it appear right when it is not.

I did not say I agreed with all her thinking. I said she was a brilliant writer and on the sentence level she was. From sentences one builds paragraphs and from paragraphs essays. Dworkin could put it all together.

Only in your dreams will you ever be able to write as well as Dworkin.

Perhaps someday you will understand that you can disagree with a person and still admire many things about them.

How I tell 'em apart

Democrats/"liberals" : Want to over-regulate public behavior

Republican/"conservatives :Want to over-regulate private behavior.

;)

-- mikeinportc

Eh, mebbe.

I think it's more complicated than that.

You can't really regulate human behaviors, that is the point, not without curtailing personal liberties. But you can regulate the market based interactions between humans that involve those behaviors.

I have no idea what either of those terms means anymore, other than as names for two somewhat opposing and self-identifying groups. You could call them The Jets and The Sharks and it would be just as descriptive.

It scares me a bit when people are very proud to be Democrats or Republicans or liberals or conservatives or libertarians. In most walks of life we resist labels, why embrace them in politics? Why voluntarily be grouped with people you will invariably disagree with at some point?

It is not the U.S. customers of The Emperor's Club that should concern you. It is the International clients whose exposure could have global repercussions. Imagine a Saudi or Israeli customer being "outed" in this sting. That is why I say it is of international and universal import. We are all subject to the misplaced judgments of those in power.

I am committed to Oneness through Justice and Transformation

peace,

st john

Needless to say, I do not envision the marketplace performing the miracles that you do. However, I do thank you for your opinion.

Yes , too simple . Wasn't entirely (or mostly) serious. ;)That's a tendency not an absolute description .

Just noticed something in the Florida leg. /salvia article .

" Bill makes possession of saliva a felony"

Hope that's just an AP typo , not the Wise Ones in FLA going on an anti-spit crusade . :)

I must apologize. I read your last post too hastily. I see you are not prescribing the marketplace as a miracleworker.

Why be terrified?

The Democrats are only slightly less venal than the Republicans..

Truth be told they are all owned by the same people, they just play "good cop, bad cop" with us.

The real powers prefer the Republicans to be in nominal charge since they operate more directly on the real power agenda, but they have the Democrats as the "b" team in reserve..

Margalis , agreed. Should be a positional description, on a particular issue, not a state of being . Don't think that's the majority opinion , though

I'm a self taught troubleshooter, I deal with reality on a daily basis at a level where if I do not correctly analyze the problem I don't make a living. I find the great majority of people I come in contact with to be not very good at thinking things through in a logical manner, even people who have jobs far more well compensated than what I do.

I also work in field where I have to logically diagnose and resolve complicated problems on a daily basis. It's amazing how many people work backwards, skip steps, propose solutions to non-existent problems, etc.

I'm always telling my coworkers my three steps for success:

1. Figure out what the problem is.

2. Figure out a solution.

3. Make sure the solution fixes the problem and doesn't break anything else.

Most people do only step 2.

In the case of prostitution or drug laws people have a nebulous idea that making certain things illegal fixes some problem, but they don't have a good understanding of that problem and they don't bother to check if their solution makes any difference at all. (or doesn't make a negative one)