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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 12:00 AM

Misadventures in logical reasoning -- and lessons learned from the Spitzer scandal

Nothing obliterates rational discourse like a titillating sex scandal.

The letters thread is now closed.

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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:30 AM

Glenn, you are the man.

Excellent post Glenn, but there is something I would like to add that no poster has educated you about.

Sometimes women try to induce abortions that harm themselves and the foetuses they carry, therefore all abortion ought be made illegal.

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:31 AM

On The Victimless Crime Thing

Last night on Tucker Carlson they were making the point that organized crime runs prostitution, so money directed there ends up killing people and buying and selling heroin and extortion.....sounded pretty hysterical to me.

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:32 AM

Actually, your logic is wrong.

Sometimes, people force women against their will to work as prostitutes. Therefore, we should outlaw all prostitution (rather than just outlaw forced prostitution and human trafficking).

The problem is that "sometimes" should be replaced with "usually". In almost every country where prostitution is "legal" or tolerated by the law, pimps, drug abuse among employees, and all the other terrible side effects of prostitution are present. Unless you expect them to work out of storefronts, which is absolutely impossible politically in almost in country on earth, then the occupation will be underground and subject to criminal activity.

Sometimes, people engage in interrogation tactics that, in hindsight, were not absolutely necessary and produced no useful intelligence. Therefore, we should outlaw all uses of these interrogation tactics (rather than just outlawing the unwise use of them).

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:32 AM

RMP

When I was in my religious stage as a youth and started to question the hypocrisy that I witnessed by the supposedly devout, I realized that they were railing at themselves without knowing it.

It's exactly the way the shrillest, most-obsessed anti-gay fanatics are battling they know are inside them.

Those who have been running around making a very public spectacle the last couple of days about how REPULSIVE and DISGUSTING and EVIL they find Eliot Spitzer's behavior seem to me to care just a little too much about it, as in: "That's disgusting! Ban it! Get it away from me!!!"

They recognized, sometimes subliminally, that there were reality contradictions in what they were told to believe. Rather than question those beliefs, these insecure people chose to condemn others so they didn’t have to face themselves and the hypocrisies in their beliefs and their leaders.

There's just nothing as self-satisfying as being part of a righteous mob pointing at someone dirty and lowly and condemning him. Being part of the judging mob is proof of one's own cleanliness.

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:33 AM

If religion, marriage and other forms of psychological abuse and control that shame and punish safe, consensual and harm-free expression of sexuality

were disallowed, there would be no need or market for prostitution.

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:35 AM

@ GC!

Ducks are unavoidable. So also is unassailable logic in a world full of assailants. It's okay to be celeriac, GC. It's also okay to watch the gears of logic mesh with the world of dolce far niente. Glenn was being complimented for his partisanship, not criticized for his reasoning.

Shoes and a belt aren't needed anyway, not for prisoners of conscience.

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:35 AM

@The Notorious W.E.S.

Last night on Tucker Carlson they were making the point that organized crime runs prostitution, so money directed there ends up killing people and buying and selling heroin and extortion.....sounded pretty hysterical to me.

Uh, wouldn't the CORRECT logic be that the tax-funded enforcement that makes it profitable for the mob to be involved in prostitution ends up killing people and buying and selling heroin and extortion?

As soon as there's no money in prostition (or drugs, or gambling, etc.) the mob will get out of it.

Probably they have their own lobbyists to protect these income streams.

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:36 AM

the schizoid nature of American sexual body politics

Well, Greenwald basically outlined the the schizoid nature of American society. If a transgression is about sex, it should be punished. However, if the transgression is of a violent nature, directed at those who are powerless, then it won't be punished.

To wit, Spitzer is out and GW Bush will retire to Crawford despite the fact that he's probably done more to harm the interest of the United States than any single president.

The reaction is due the the historical nature of American society; it's Puritan roots and its violent legacy. We deplore sex but are probbaly one of the most pornographic countries on the planet—if not THE most pornographic country.

I can't say that I have much of a dog in this issue. I left NY before Spitzer took office. Had I remained I would not have voted for him because of the position that he took on the Atlantic Yard development issue in Brooklyn. Being the son of a developer, Spitzer went with a project that was the epitome of being corrupt and unaccountable to local control and concerns, and basic democratic oversight.

Spitzer is credited with making sure that Wall Street played by more transparent rules and should be remember for that.

Yet there was a dark side to Spitzer, which a WSJ journalist reminds us that he was enabled by the media. See "Spitzer's Media Enablers" [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120528114453028807.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries].

Also, the fact that he was also using the state police to try and get the goods on his political opponent, State Sen. Joe Bruno (R).

However, depending how you view things, this tawdry epsiode underscores the kind of political peccadiloes that may recall Bill Clinton's romp in the WH, and why people may not want to see him and Clinton II back there.

Yet I do find it intriguing that his behavior was a trip-wire for the Feds and wonder if this is just another version of a politicized Bush DOJ going after another Democrat the way a Alabama's Democratic governor Don Spiegelmanin was brought down.

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:37 AM

@GlennGreenwald

Those who have been running around making a very public spectacle the last couple of days about how REPULSIVE and DISGUSTING and EVIL they find Eliot Spitzer's behavior seem to me to care just a little too much about it, as in: "That's disgusting! Ban it! Get it away from me!!!"

"...AS LONG AS WE KEEP TALKING ABOUT IT!"

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:39 AM

Nancy Ott

I disagree with you..

My sympathy is for the kids, they have no control over who their father or mother is.

The wife chose a career politician as a husband. With that choice came the knowledge that her spouse has a greatly inflated ego.

Men with greatly inflated egos do this kind of thing on a regular basis.

I'd be quite surprised if this came as a total shock to Mrs Spitzer.

Not to mention that we have no way of knowing how much her own behavior drove that of her husband. Not making any accusations but husband/wife dynamics can get very strange.

Once again, I have utter, complete and total sympathy for the kids.

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