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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 12:00 AM

Misadventures in logical reasoning -- and lessons learned from the Spitzer scandal

Nothing obliterates rational discourse like a titillating sex scandal.

The letters thread is now closed.

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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 02:41 PM

Pancho....

you are making an excellent point, but not everyone who is against prostitution is a conservative sex hater.

Especially when you consider how little joyful sexuality is involved in hooking. It's really not a free sex issue (no pun intended).

Many feminists are against legalization and they have strong arguments for that, which I happen to agree with. Apparently that makes me a witch.

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 02:41 PM

"these are "business" people that control the prime pan handling real estate by force and recruit homeless people to work those corners."

Good Lord, that was the plot line for Bette Davis' role of "Apple Annie" in "Pocket Full of Miracles".

I'm just saying....

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 02:45 PM

Thelma

thanks for adding a one of the few sane voices to this thread...

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 02:45 PM

@ Pancho

Prostitutes are rarely arrested or prosecuted in any area with a modicum of "real" crime. Police officers, who actually have a reasonable sense of what goes on "out there", are usually loathe to arrest them because they recognize them for what they are--victims. Almost always, they are addicted to drugs and other substances, runaways, sexually abused as children and essentially psychologically damaged. The rare times you will see a prostitute arrested, it's because neighborhood soccer moms have been calling a district commander on a woman who has been working an area a little too close to their homes. NIMBY.

For all the "responsible people making their own choices" folks, does the fact that most prostitutes begin before they are underage bother you? Or that the prevalence of child abuse/drug addiction is so high among this population? How much of a rational choice can anyone in that situation rightly be said to make?

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 02:47 PM

Guns

I've read every one of these messages, and I have not seen Glenn or anyone else respond to the point, made by at least two commenters, that what this post says about prostitution could apply to guns as well. That is, if you want to say, "Some prostitution may be forced and some prostitutes may be miserable and exploited, but that isn't a reason to ban all prostitution," you are pretty much required to say, "Some people may use assault weapons to kill large numbers of people, but that isn't a reason to ban all assault weapons."

Glenn might well respond that he's against an assault-weapons ban, in which case, fair enough--we would have found another area where his libertarianism leads me to disagree with him (as with his admiration of Ron Paul). But I imagine that plenty of the people here who are glibly making fun of illegalized prostitution who would balk at making Street Sweeper sales legal.

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 02:49 PM

Dehumanizing

I have to say, to AKA and Tina who I sometimes/frequently agree with, you both seem to be personalizing the issue.

Like me, you cannot conceive of wanting to do something that you see as debasing of your values, of your self worth. It would never enter our minds to do it.

I think you're missing the picture, not all women or men (that also can sell their bodies) find it repugnant, immoral, debasing, soul killing, whatever, etc. Many people of both sexes see sex as a physical act, no big deal. Not you, not me, but we aren't everybody. Hell, I couldn't box or ultimate fight either, can't imagine putting my body through that kind of abuse, punches to the face, so...I'm not going to do that, either. Half the things the guys do on "Jackass" I think are unimagineable, but I see them as exploiting themselves. Oh well.

Spitzer made his bed, I won't cry for him, he knew the rules.

The callgirl? I have no idea why she does what she does. Maybe because it's big money, she feels she might as well rake it in while she can. I don't think throwing her in jail, let alone giving her a criminal record, will solve any of the world's problems.

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 02:53 PM

@tomemos

You have a very good point. Just because a (relatively) few people have had mass sex with dozens of total strangers, all at once, and resulting in their bloody and undeserved deaths, doesn't mean we should outlaw sex.

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 02:55 PM

smell?

High end hookers get STDs. They aren't prettier and they don't smell nicer because she was paid more.

Gotta throw out a big WTF? on that one...

I'm getting totally lost on this Julia Roberts side-issue. If it's wrong, is it less wrong if you make lots of money? If it's not wrong, is it more wrong to get ten bucks for a handjob?

Going back to the original post, stating what seems to be an obvious point: making something illegal does not make it impossible, and as far as I can tell has more chance of making it happen more and in more dangerous conditions. During Prohibition, we had bathtub gin. Criminalizing drug use and prostitution brings us toxic street junk and psychotic pimps.

There's no one, simple answer... both prohibition and total legalisation have their problems. The idea that you can legislate away badness is one that I would have hoped had been discarded some time ago.

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 02:56 PM

Eve is falling.

Good Lord, that was the plot line for Bette Davis' role of "Apple Annie" in "Pocket Full of Miracles".

I'm just saying....

A bit before my time, but I will have to update my post to read: I have come to realize I am not nearly experienced enough.

I see that it is a Capra film, but I still have to ask--Does everything turn out alright in the end? I wonder if Capra was using this as a metaphor for prostitution? Apples...mmmm.

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 02:57 PM

Prostitution and factory work

Not the same thing.

Prostitution is not just another "unpleasant job" people do "in order to support themselves, rather than because they enjoy it".

If you're an unemployed Nevadan and go to an employment agency, how come the person behind the counter might suggest a career in fast food, but will never say: "I've got a great job offer for you here: how about becoming a prostitute in the local brothel?"

For all those people who think prostitution is just a normal job that simply isn't as enjoyable as being, say, a lawyer: What if you had a daughter (and prostitution were legal); if she were asking for career advice -- she was doubting between a career in fast food and a career in the escort business, which would you recommend? Exactly.

The truth is, prostitution is very problematic. Many women are being exploited or abused, or have other issues. Legalization doesn't solve anything. They legalized it in 2001 in the Netherlands, and the problem (with sex slaves) only became bigger, so they are now thinking about criminalizing it again (pimping, that is, not prostitution).

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