it's not that I'm refusing to answer your question, its just that it's a diversionary tactic and as such is not worth my time.

Just because someone is driven to desperation by poverty doesn't mean prostitution is right. In fact, it's pretty much an admission of what I've been saying, that prostitution is not the Happy Hooker myth its proponents claim it to be.

So which is it now, are they desperately poor women on the verge of starvation or is it just another choice any woman can be happy with? Which? You can't have it both ways, now.

Hmm, I just finished reading the NYTimes articles and the Spitzer wikipedia entry, and (unless someone else has more complete information on his notable cases as Attn. General, you're probably right in re any prosecution of other prostitution rings. I totally thought I read something about that on... dailykos or somewhere. My bad.

However, I think my point is still entirely valid--if you're in any sort of law-enforcement or governmental position, including (maybe even especially) such a high-ranking one as attorney general or governor, the same laws still apply to you as to any other regular joe. If something is against the law (and obviously many things shouldn't be--whether you would include soliciting prostitutes, buying drugs, etc. in that category), you must still be held accountable to that law.

Not all "paid for sex" is harmless and victimless. Human trafficking is a billion dollar business. The CIA estimates that around 50,000 women and children are trafficked here in the U.S. alone. Many men who frequent these services may not recognize that women can be held there against their will, or have been victims of kidnapping and forced prostitution to pay back certain "debts" to their pimps. Often the pimps will keep these women in servitude by threatening them or their families with bodily harm or death. If the women aren't victims of kidnapping still even more women are coerced into the job because they have no other way of supporting themselves and may have a drug problem or children to support. It's still coerced sex, and it's ignorant to think that just because you *think* it's consensual, doesn't mean there is no victim. Most transactions are set up by the pimps, or if they are not most of the money at least goes to these pimps, so, Glenn and others, how can you actually believe that these women or children are somehow not being exploited? I'm not saying that all sex workers are victims, but the majority of them are. Not to mention that many have violent pasts, filled with sexual abuse and assaults. It's actually common for victims of sexual assault or abuse to go through a period where "the sex just doesn't matter", where the victim could end up having sex with many people and just not care. I say this having spent many hours around victims in a rape crisis center. I have also talked to many people who have been part of the sex trade - they were all participants because they HAD to be, not because they chose to be.

All that said, I'm still not for arresting everyone involved. I say leave the women, who have been most likely exploited through coercion or against their will alone. Don't criminalize them, offer them health care and other help. Criminalize the johns, I have no problem with that - they are the ones who are driving the market.

So, just because something seems like a victimless and harmless act to you Glenn, (and others), doesn't mean it's not. You need to consider the environment and other possible factors. For a women who is being held against her will and threatened with beatings or death if she doesn't sell her body, should this be considered consensual? How about a kidnapped child (yes it happens in the U.S.) being beaten every day unless he or she provides sex for money, is this child really able to give consent? Is the absence of the ability to say "No" either because the person will be beaten and threatened, mean that the consent is okay and valid? I don't think so. And this is something that many johns don't consider. They think - oh, she wouldn't do this kind of job if she really didn't want to. Think again, because sometimes these women and children are not even given a choice, they don't have the ability to say "no" if they want to. And coercion or force is not the same as choice.

BTW, those "profiles" you see online with made up names like Candi and Mandi, telling you how Vixen has a degree in international relations and enjoys skiing, massage and fine wine - they are made up profiles, designed to entice. They are not real. One of my guy friends hired one of these services and refused to believe me when I told him that these profiles are made up. It never ceased to amaze me how johns will delude themselves (But MY prostitute is "classy" so I don't need to wear a condom, etc.) in order to make their smut seem less sleazy.

I agree with the analysis that questions whether Spitzer should be prosecuted. However, I have another question which Glen Greenwald did not ask. Where did the money come from?

Mr. Spitzer has been a public servant most, if not all, of his career. He worked in the District Attorney's Office, then was Attorney General, and now is the Governor of New York. I live in Pennsylvania and have no idea how much the Attorney General of the Governor of New York make. I do knows the salary of the Pennsylvania Governor and Attorney General. Neither makes enough to regularly hire extremely high priced call girls.

A copy of the web ad for the service is on the internet--the site has been removed of course. The lowest price for a 3 diamond woman is $1000 an hour. The prices rise for 4, 5, and 6 diamond women. I have no idea how many diamonds Kristen had. But even at the lowest rate a three hour session is $3000 plus travel expenses, the hotel, etc.

I would be much more worried about the source of the money than whether the Governor used a prostitute. Were the prosecutions of prostitution rings part of an elaborate shake down scheme? Take down a couple of rings and the rest fall into line.

The most disappointing aspect of this situation is that I was hoping Governor Spitzer would be nominated for US Attorney General when a Democrat is in the White House. His record as a prosecutor would have justified the nomination. That idea is off the table.

John H

Patriotism is supporting your country all the time,
and your government when it deserves it. --Mark Twain